Every public restroom provides, at a minimum, a toilet, toilet paper, running water, hand soap, and either air blowers or paper towels to dry your hands after you wash them. Sanitation codes further require that employers provide “reasonable access” to bathrooms to ensure that workers do not suffer adverse health effects from toilets that are not sanitary and/or are not available when needed. And the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) also requires that restrooms provide full access for people with disabilities, by using Braille and allowing adequate space and clearance for individuals who use wheelchairs.
Why? To promote public health, safety and hygiene, that’s why. So, public restrooms that meet these basic requirements provide reasonable access for everyone, right? Well, no. At least not for slightly over half the population. That is why the Town of Brookline is about to become the first municipality in the country to provide free tampons and sanitary pads in both women’s and men’s restrooms (because not all people who menstruate identify as female) in all public buildings and facilities, such as Town Hall, the libraries, and public parks. As one Brookline Town Meeting member said: “Tampons and pads are as necessary for public health and hygiene as toilet paper. They should be treated the same way.” A bill is also pending at the State House that would require all public schools serving middle school and high school students must provide free tampons and pads, as well.
Newton’s Mayor, City Council and School Committee should adopt these same policies. But they shouldn’t stop there. To ensure access for all, and in order to promote public health, safety, and hygiene, public restrooms should also have a baby changing table, a condom dispenser, and be gender neutral.
Baby changing tables ought to be a no brainer. Every parent of young children, regardless of gender or gender identity, needs a semi-private, sanitary place to change a dirty diaper, right? So everyone should be able to agree that having baby changing tables in all public restrooms is essential.
What about condom dispensers? Well, by senior year in high school, two-thirds of adolescents have had sexual intercourse at least once with one or more partners, and one-third are currently sexually active. Condoms are still the most popular and effective protection against the spread of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) and unintended pregnancies among adolescents. Indeed, over half of American adolescents use condoms regularly during sexual intercourse. But that means the rest are at a heightened risk of contracting STIs and/or causing unintended pregnancies. Moreover, while a teenager may be too embarrassed or ashamed to go to the nurses’ office or a pharmacy to get condoms, having condom dispensers in school bathrooms ensures that they can obtain condoms without having to ask an adult for them. Having condom dispensers in public school bathrooms would therefore promote adolescent health and safety.
Finally, all public restrooms should be gender neutral. My church recently made the decision to have gender neutral bathrooms, so I understand that it can be a hard sell for some folks. But research has shown that nearly two-thirds of transgender and nonconforming gender students avoid school bathrooms because they feel unsafe or uncomfortable. They risk verbal and physical harassment, no matter which sex-segregated restroom they enter. And over half of transgender students report that they have been required to use the restroom of their birth sex, rather than the one that they feel most comfortable using. Providing separate restrooms for cisgender persons and transgender persons is neither a fair nor reasonable solution. Indeed, it is discriminatory and damaging to transgender persons, just like having separate bathrooms for “white” and “colored” people was to African Americans. And public support should not be an issue, since in November 2018, over two-thirds of Massachusetts voters supported laws protecting transgender persons in public accommodations, while less than a third supported the so-called “bathroom bill” that would have eliminated such protections. More importantly, in Newton, the margin was almost five to one in favor of protections based on gender identity.
So, Mayor Fuller, Newton City Councilors and Newton School Committee members (and candidates), I say it is time for you to make public restrooms accessible for all. What say you?
I hope that the restroom gender neutrality that we all deserve instructs us in updating our restrooms to be at least as comfortable as the ones I have seen in Europe:
1. Entry into a mirrored, hand-washing area used by all sexes.
(I would add liquid soap dispensers (filled, please) and jetted hand driers for improved public health.)
2.) Separate, closed stalls with doors that lock from the inside and reach from ceiling to floor, making single person compartments.
3.) No urinals.
4.) Personal privacy, allowing no listening to someone else tinkle or pass wind!
5.) Besides Toilet paper, I would add condoms, tampons and pads inside all the stalls.
6.) I would also re-plumb wherever possible, with Universal Height toilets and handicap grab bars in all the stalls!
By the way…I was amused during a visit to a clever restaurant in Ferndale, Michigan, whose restrooms were updated with a change of signs from “Women” and “Men” to “Either” and “Or”.
I miss Ted Hess-Mahan. This city misses his leadership. I agree with every word Ted wrote at the top of this thread.
Can the tampons be the kind without plastic, just cardboard? I just read one of Emily’s FB links about EU banning a bunch of plastic items.
Here’s what I’d like: require bathrooms to have soap that’s NOT “antibacterial.” That antibacterial stuff has been shown to contribute to more resistant bacteria.
I vote for all of the above, plus bidet functionality (preferably with a blow-dry cycle), heated toilet seats, relaxing music, and automatic lid openers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilets_in_Japan#Western-style
And let us never, ever, adopt that godforsaken “reverse bowl design” favored by the North Rhine-Westphalians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_flush_toilet
I was just at a state legislative hearing today where a high school student was advocating for menstrual products in bathrooms, she made a very compelling case. Students should be focused on learning, not on whether they’ll be embarrassed to ask the nurse or a friend for sanitary products.
I am 100% in support of this, menstrual products should be treated as just as necessary as toilet paper.
I also fully support single stall, gender neutral bathrooms. Why anyone would want a communal restroom experience is beyond me.
Let’s get this conversation started.
@Ted
I suspect usage patterns in your church vs High School would be somewhat different. Let alone a high capacity sports stadium.
Perhaps a more nuanced approach would be to make a percentage of single stall restrooms gender neutral. I say a percentage because I have worked in places in the past where gender neutral restrooms were available, but the females wouldn’t want use them
due to the male messers! Probably the same reason we see faculty or staff only restrooms!
Sounds to me like men and women will be have full access to both restrooms, in other words restrooms won’t be separate by gender, not legally anyway
Agree with Bryan that reasonable solutions such as a certain number of single-stall gender neutral/family equipped bathrooms makes sense.
I don’t know how men feel, but I don’t know one woman (cisgender or transgender) who wants to share public bathrooms and locker rooms with men, even if they have padlocks on the stall or shower doors.
Only a retired politician would push for that.
@Sarah, I see what you did there.
Refreshingly, I agree with everything Sally Lipschutz said. As Sally pointed out, Europe has all gender bathrooms, and they have far better facilities than anything you will see in (most of ) America.
Sarah, you and Simon seem to adopt the hackneyed response that “boys will be boys.” That is one of the reasons that transgender male adolescents are afraid to go in the “boys room” where they will be verbally and maybe physically abused. In the #metoo era, there should be no place for that kind of outdated, outmoded thinking.
Taking a lesson from European countries, we do not have to sacrifice privacy and modesty for gender neutral bathrooms. It does mean that those who plan and design public buildings will have to think differently about how to meet the needs of all students and adults. Single restrooms or smaller bathrooms with more private stalls can easily resolve concerns about safety and comfort. But all gender restrooms will happen, because the safety and comfort of transgender and gender nonconforming students and adults is important.
Of course he could come out of retirement and docket the item in January.
Run, Ted, run!!
@Ted, avoiding “boys will be boys” behavior is certainly a part of a woman’s angst about being in a co-ed bathroom, particularly in a large public space with strangers. However, the bigger issue is wanting some privacy from men in public bathrooms.
Most women have no problem with sharing the bathroom with transgender men and women who are more comfortable using the women’s bathroom, but making girls and women share a bathroom or locker room with all men in the name of transgender rights really breeds a lot of resentment about transgender rights when we shouldn’t be going there.
I realize I’m middle-aged, but my teenage daughter and her friends are even more against being in a bathroom with cisgender boys and men than I am. We all see a women’s bathroom and locker room as a bit of a sanctuary of privacy. I don’t think we’re alone in that.
“Taking a lesson from European countries, we do not have to sacrifice privacy and modesty for gender neutral bathrooms.” Ted said that and I agree (unusual for the two of us, even tho’ he never spells either my first or last name correctly). In the European bathrooms I encountered, a person enters into a central area that has sinks and mirrors. To carry out physiological needs, that person would go into one of several separate, small “rooms” used only by a single person at a time. Modesty and privacy prevail. Then, afterwards, that person washes hands in the common use area. This model would work for both sexes. As to the worry that men leave a mess, I can attest to the fact that women do, too. That’s not a sex-linked gene! I think people could adapt to that kind of bathroom design fairly quickly.
@Sallee
I’m intrigued. Which European countries in particular are you referring too, and in what context (Hotel, Bar, Restaurant etc)
@Sallee, they have that type of bathroom at the institution where I work, and the women I know don’t like it, even though they’re afraid to say it out loud. I don’t know how men feel.
I have no issue with shared spaces, and understand there are challenges that come with them. One user pointed out that no urinals would be necessary.
I understand that it’s a silly thing to take a stand against, but urinals are extremely efficient, and many modern versions are flushless and use a tiny fraction of the water that modern toilets use. In addition to water efficiency, they are also very time efficient. We’ve all been to stadiums, airports, or locations with large crowds and have seen the long lines for restrooms that extend outside the bathroom itself. In certain areas it might make sense to have a separate ‘urinal room’ to ease lines for both men and women that need a stall. This concept already exists in the form of an 8 urinal porta-potty. Perhaps if society moves towards universal bathrooms, this could be a concept that also gets adopted.
@Simon: I saw and used the common bathrooms in Portugal, Spain, southern France and Italy. They were in restaurants, public buildings and museums. My last European visit (a cruise in the Mediterranean) was three or four years ago…
@Sarah: I am trying to understand why the women don’t like this configuration? I suppose if the “closets” also had mirrors, hair could be combed and make-up could be applied in private, if that is the complaint. Washing hands in a coed bathroom seems non-threatening to me, kind of like cooking in a family kitchen!
Providing tampons, pads and condoms in the bathrooms is a good idea. However, converting all of the bathrooms to gender neutral is an extremely *bad* idea. The primary reason for this is that while it benefits one small group, transgender and gender non-conforming individuals, it does so at the expense of a very large group, namely, biological females.
I hope that the bloggers who control the Village 14 blog, will be open-minded enough to allow me to present a viewpoint that is not covered by the mainstream media and which is disliked by Transgender Activists. I will just touch upon an opposing view to the well-known transgender narrative, for educational purposes, not to offend anyone.
As you may know, not everyone agrees with Gender Identity Ideology. Among those who disagree with it are Radical Feminists, Gender Critical Feminists, and many political Centrists and Conservatives. Both Radical and Gender Critical Feminism are a continuation of Second Wave Feminism, which most people know as the Women’s Movement of the 1960’s and 1970’s. Unlike Third Wave Feminists who believe that “transgender women are women.” Radical and Gender Critical Feminists believe that transgender women are biological males who present themselves as women.
While the above explanation is a bit of an over-simplification, it is critical to understanding that Radical/Gender Critical Feminists strongly believe that biological females need their own spaces which are free from biological/anatomical males. (Please note that approximately three-quarters of transgender women – male to female transitioners – never have “bottom surgery” which means that they still have male genitalia after transitioning.) Many political Centrists and Conservatives agree with the views of above-mentioned feminists. Consequently, these groups want bathrooms to be segregated by biological s*x (word edited to avoid having this comment marked as spam) to protect the privacy and safety of females.
Keep in mind that even in Massachusetts, polls leading up to the November 2018 election, where the transgender bathroom law was being reconsidered, only 49-52% of residents were still in favor of transgender bathroom laws. (Source: Boston Magazine “Poll: Preserving the Transgender Protections Law Is No Sure Thing” 6/15/2018) To get the question for repealing the law onto the ballot, over 60,000 Massachusetts residents signed a petition. Clearly, there is significant opposition to putting the rights of transgender/gender non-conforming individuals over those of people who accept their biology as determining whether they are men or women .
What’s more important is that a backlash against certain transgender laws (e.g. choosing a bathroom, locker-room or sports team based on gender identity) has begun. While a comment on a blog doesn’t give me adequate room to fully explain what is happening, perhaps I can set forth a couple of key points.
First, the Transgender Movement has become a trend among our youth. Consequently, there is now a problem with adolescents and college students who showed no sign of Gender Dysphoria (the underlying cause for one’s feeling that they have been born into the wrong body) as kids suddenly coming “out” in groups and saying that they are “transgender.” Social contagion is involved. A researcher by the name of Lisa Littman published a paper (“Rapid-onset gender dysphoria in adolescents and young adults: A study of parental reports”) about this phenomenon and called it “Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD).” Apparently, ROGD primarily affects females, the majority of whom are on the Autism Spectrum and who have a variety of mental health problems which contribute to their belief that they are “transgender.” Since Transgender Activists have convinced everyone that “affirmation” and medical transition is the only acceptable approach to helping anyone who says that they are “transgender,” many young people are being medically transitioned, only to discover after a few years of living as a transgender person that they are not really “transgender.”
An internationally recognized expert in Gender Dysphoria, Dr. Kenneth Zucker, who was forced out of his job at CAMH in Toronto, Canada by a smear campaign orchestrated by Transgender Activists says that there is more than one cause for Gender Dysphoria. The primary reason he was attacked by activists was that he had had a lot of success in providing therapy for Gender Dysphoric children. The therapy caused a high desistance rate, as one might suspect since all of the research to date shows that 80%-98% of children who think they were born into the wrong body, if left alone or helped to understand their confusion, *accept* their birth-sex at puberty.
Dr. Zucker sued for wrongful firing and for the libel committed against him by his accusers. He won his lawsuit and was vindicated. However, since the Transgender Activists were successful in getting a legitimate Gender Dysphoria expert FIRED for doing things in a way that contradicted their narrative, many people including psychologists, physicians, teachers and lay people are AFRAID TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT THEIR DISAGREEMENT WITH the Transgender Movement.
A few doctors have come forward, such as Paul McHugh, MD, Johns Hopkins Hospital’s former Chief of Psychiatry who worked in their Gender Clinic in the 1960’s and 1970’s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mtQ1geeD_c). Transgender Activists and Liberals discredit him for being a Conservative, but he does raise some important points about the cause and treatment of Gender Dysphoria and the growing Transgenderism trend.
To complicate matters, many former “transgender” people are now coming forward as “detransitioners” (they lived as transgender for a while and then returned to their birth-sex). And at least tens of thousands of people (this number is derived from comments on the subject I have read on various websites) have reached what is called “Peak Trans” which is the moment when a transgender person or transgender ally realizes that what the Transgender Activists told them was untrue, at which point they begin to see Transgender Ideology as harmful to others (primarily harmful to females – for privacy, safety, and unfair sports competition – and children who are being possibly unnecessarily “transed” i.e. medically transitioned for being “gender non-conforming”). For some who have participated in the Transgender Community, it has become clear that part of this trend to transition young people comes from homophobia. In fact, many of the girls/young women who transition to living as men were either lesbians prior to transitioning or accept that this was the cause of their gender dysphoria after detransitioning. This means that Transgenderism is destroying a generation of lesbians by converting them into heterosexual men. (For the record, I am a female heterosexual.)
Four young women who detransitioned have formed a group called the Pique Resilience Project (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmGEMjyAwk6R1lTmG_JjLUA). Their goal is: “to promote positive social change through candid examination of our experiences as detransitioners. Our mission is to provide young people with the tools for critical thinking and the courage for self-reflection and understanding.” In other words, they are trying to educate and provide support for young people and parents of transgender identifying youth who may be suffering from Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria. Another well-known detransitioner is Walt Heyer who helps people who regret changing their gender.
The takeaway from all of this is that many people are predicting that we are headed for MAJOR LAWSUITS for forcing children (who make this decision on their own, at as young as 11 years old) down the path of medical transition, which leads to sterility, life-long dependence on cross-sex hormones and a host of serious medical problems. A small number of detransitioners have already sued their therapists or doctors for misdiagnosing them with “gender dysphoria” and pushing them into medical transition. Other detransitioners are talking about starting a class action lawsuit.
Does the City of Newton want to get embroiled in such a hostile legal environment for the sake of Political Correctness?
As far as creating gender-neutral bathrooms goes, there is also evidence that many girls and women have already been victimized through voyeurism or physical/sexual assaults by either transgender women or cross-dressing men in bathrooms/dressing-rooms around the world. A conservative group (Liberty Counsel, a Christian international nonprofit litigation, education, and policy organization) compiled a list of incidents, with links, i.e. URLs, to the news stories on each, which totaled 79 in number. I have read and retained a copy of this document. You generally cannot find such documents with a simple Google search because Google and all of the major Social Media Websites suppress or censor Conservative viewpoints. If more females could see how many girls and women have been harmed already, they might openly oppose sharing bathrooms with males.
As a biological female who has done her own research on this matter, I no longer use public bathrooms (except, occasionally, single-stall bathrooms) or locker-rooms because I value my privacy and safety. Every female I know has told me in private that she is also afraid to use public bathrooms/locker-rooms now that any male can “identify” as a woman and go into these places.
And, as an aside for those of you who advocate for walkable/bikeable communities… as a long-time bicyclist, I gave up using my bicycle to run errands when Massachusetts passed the current Gender Identity bathroom law a few years ago. Since it is no longer safe for me (as a female) to use public bathrooms, I must be able to get home quickly should I need to relieve myself, so I take my car, even for relatively short distances. Other females I know do the same with respect to bicycling and public transit. I guess that the new “bikeable” communities will just be for males who don’t have to worry about being attacked or photographed while dressing or using a toilet in a public facility.
Please don’t force gender-neutral bathrooms on us without first considering *everyone’s* rights and the long-term ramifications of the current Transgender Trend.
@Ubiety, while I disagree almost entirely with your comment, no one at Village14, least of all me, is going to deny you a forum to state your piece.
Rather than address each of your points, let me just say that in my life I have known many transgendered youth and adults. Not all have surgery (or can even afford it), nor do all of them take medications or hormones. But many live their lives happily and successfully as a gender other than what they were assigned at birth.
What I can say is that every transgender person I have known is happier living their lives as the gender they identify as, and none regret doing so, even though it can present some challenges. For instance, like many other LGBTQ adolescents and adults, some of their families may not accept or support their gender identity, and may even cut of all contact. But from their perspective, living a lie is far more challenging and painful than the alternative.
As for gender neutral bathrooms, I think Sallee Lipschutz has covered the waterfront on that subject.
@Ted: Thanks for getting Sallee spelled correctly. How about leaving the “c” out of Lipshutz in the future? 😉
Sorry, Sallee. I wish I could blame autocorrect.
BTW, my favorite corruption of my name is still what a partner at my old firm called me: “Tess Head-Salmon.”
I completely agree with both Ted and Sallee.
Ubiety, I’m truly sorry that you have changed you life out of fear of people who are different from you. One specific thing I want to point out is your comment:“forcing children (who make this decision on their own, at as young as 11 years old) down the path of medical transition.” I don’t know of anyone doing that. A person must be 18 yo to make a decision and carry it through on their own. A 17 yo can with parental support.
@Ted Hess-Mahan
You obviously did not bother to review any of the information I provided supporting a problem among people who are medically transitioning when they are *not* transgender. When you say that you have met “many” trangendered youth and adults, what number does that represent? Ten? Twenty? One hundred? I gave you the names of five people who are public detransitioners. And, a quick search would give you access to many more. I guess that their stories don’t count. Not even the ones who are mourning the loss of their breasts, which were removed in unnecessary bilateral mastectomies. Some of them report numbness and tingling in their chests, which may never resolve; and they will have to live with discomfort, and as “atypical” women, which will be very difficult for them.
While I do appreciate your allowing me to post the opposing viewpoint, you and other Liberals are obviously unwilling to consider the views and experiences of anyone who does not go along with a Liberal agenda. Ironically, many of the people who report having reached “Peak Trans,” loss of support for the Transgender Movement, describe themselves as “leftists.” You are losing your own supporters.
Why don’t you watch a few videos from the Pique Resilience Project or read some of the comments from detransitioners on Reddit’s “detrans” subreddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans) before taking away the rights of females?
At least listen to these people, in their own words, before siding with the “many” transgender people you know against half the human race (females) and others who have already been harmed. You seem very sympathetic to the transgender people who are cut off by their own families, but not to the detransitioners or their families who tried to support them in their transition/detransition struggles. That is a shame, and a big part of the reason why there is a sharp divide in our country.
By the way, I am sympathetic to people who suffer from Gender Dysphoria and understand how difficult it is for them to live their lives. Can you find it within yourself to sympathize with people whose views and experiences differ from your own?
@Marti Bowen
Marti, did you bother to read what I said before replying with the official Liberal Party Line?
I did not say that I changed the way I lived because I was “afraid of people who were different from me.” I said that I changed the way I lived because I was afraid of MALES, that is male strangers who may not be transgender, but who gain access to women-only spaces (e.g. bathrooms and locker-rooms).
In fact, the people who you assumed were “different from me” are probably more like me than you are. Like hundreds of women I have communicated with online, I was a “TOMBOY,” that is, a gender non-conforming child. I am still a “gender non-conforming” adult (although I don’t see myself that way since I don’t believe that gender exists in nature – so I have no gender – only female biology). Many of us “tomboys” are grateful that we are not kids today because, in the current environment, we would be pressured into transitioning to live as men. This is happening to many girls (and boys who are pressured into living as women) who do not conform to traditional patriarchal gender roles.
The female detransitioners say that they have no role models of “masculine” women because, according to them, young people today can’t be tomboys the way I was when I was a child in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And, they only see images of women who are “girly-girls” in the media/entertainment industry.
There is a crisis among girls today, and the Liberals are “solving” it by forcing kids who don’t conform to traditional gender roles to alter their bodies to be “in alignment” with society’s expectations of them. Some people are even calling Transgenderism the new anorexia for girls. I would like to correct the problem of rigid gender roles in society rather than altering the bodies of and drugging children so they can present themselves as the opposite s*x.
As for kids transitioning on their own at the age of 11, you may not know of anyone doing this because most clinics in Massachusetts adhere to rules that require kids to be 18 to transition on their own. In other parts of the country, this is not the case, and parents have had their parental rights over-ridden when they tried to prevent their prepubescent children from going on “puberty blockers” (Gnrh agonists) or taking cross-sex hormones (estrogen or testosterone). In fact, some parents have lost custody of their children because they refused to allow them to medically transition. And, children can socially transition at school without their parents’ knowledge or consent. I have also been told that *private* clinics are willing to transition kids at younger ages, for example, performing bilateral mastectomies on 13-year-old girls.
It is really a shame that the majority of Liberals don’t listen to anyone who does not agree with them. This has already led to many problems that are unraveling the fabric of our society and which may result in Trump being re-elected in 2020. While I could never bring myself to vote for Trump, I can no longer vote for Democrats for reasons such as their insistence on putting the rights of a tiny minority group ahead of the rights of half the human race. Did Liberals think that when they took away a female’s right to privacy and safety that Conservatives would not take away a female’s right to control her reproductive system?
If you want to give up your own rights as a female (which is what I am assuming you are) that is fine, but please don’t give up my rights and the rights of the many females who do not agree with the Gender Identity Ideology viewpoint.
Also, before you reject an alternate view, look up the term “cotton ceiling.” The “cotton ceiling” refers to the situation where transgender women who identify as “lesbians” pressure female lesbians into having heterosexual s*x with them. The transgender lesbians say that their male genitals are “female” body parts (”ladydicks”) and that female lesbians are “transphobic” if they refuse to have s*x with them. Not only have some female lesbians been raped, but I read an account by a female who experienced an unwanted pregnancy when the transgender woman who was raping her refused to put on a condom.
Give this some thought and then consider whether there might be some middle ground which would allow us to protect both Gender Dysphoric individuals and biological females.
@Ubiety, I have, in fact, reviewed many of the materials you cite before in various different fora, as well as many other divergent points of view that differ from mine as well as your own. For a dozen or so years now, I have been teaching Our While Lives (OWL) in the Unitarian Universalist congregation I am part of. Through OWL, we provide developmentally appropriate, factually accurate, candid, comprehensive information to our youth starting with 1st graders all the way through high school, as well as adults interested in learning more about human sexuality. None of them are forced to participate, as parental/guardian permission and support is required.
OWL includes extensive information concerning sexual orientation and gender identity, among other things. Every year, we have a panel of speakers talk to our youth about their experiences as LGBTQ persons. I have come to know transgender persons from high school through retirement age through those panels. Our congregation also includes transgender persons, including some of the youth who went through our OWL and Coming of Age programs.
In addition, I have come to know a number of transgender persons whom I have met socially, professionally, through friends whose children are transgender and through my adult children. So I would say I know dozens of transgender persons personally and many more as friends of friends or acquaintances. Not one of them has told me they experienced the things you describe in your comment, although I am not denying there are some people who may have had those experiences. But, based on my personal experience as well as the many, many articles, treatises, and studies I have reviewed since I first took a course on human sexuality in college, they represent a very small minority of transgender persons.
None of the transgender persons I know were coerced to have surgery or take medications, and the young people I know who have been transitioning only began doing so as young adults (with parental permission and support) or adults, even though many of them have known since a very young age that their gender identity does not match their birth sex. Obviously, forcing a child to transition is wrong. But so is conversion therapy, which, thanks to Rep. Kay Khan and the progressive legislators in Massachusetts, is against the law.
Respectfully, your diagnosis that girls are under attack from liberals who are forcing young people to transition strikes me as BS, if you will pardon me saying so. It also sounds profoundly paranoid. As a liberal, I can assure you I do not stay awake at night looking for ways to convert everyone into LGBTQ persons. Nor does anyone I know. Our liberal philosophy and theology would be best described as “live and let live.”
Finally, your focus on “gender dysphoria” is misplaced. Giving sexual orientation or gender identity a “diagnosis” turns it into a disease. Human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are not disorders or conditions that stray from a cisgender, black and white, statistical norm. They are, instead, expressions of the broad spectrum of beauty and wonder that is human sexuality. I firmly believe that we should not only tolerate, but affirm, support and celebrate that diversity in our culture.
By the way, @Ubiety, you ask whether I can “sympathize” with people whose views and experiences differ from my own.
As a parent, I have nothing but compassion for other parents who cannot accept, support or celebrate the lives of their LGBTQ children, and feel alienated from them. Indeed, I know many such people who are at varying stages of coming to terms with their personal view and their children’s realities. I can also sympathize with anyone who feels pain as a result of choices they have made or choices that were foist upon them. But that does not mean I can sympathize with anyone who would reject a child for being who and what they are, loving whom they love, or living their lives the way the want to live. I do not. And I do not apologize for not doing so.
@Ted Hess-Mahan wrote:
“Respectfully, your diagnosis that girls are under attack from liberals who are forcing young people to transition strikes me as BS, if you will pardon me saying so. It also sounds profoundly paranoid. As a liberal, I can assure you I do not stay awake at night looking for ways to convert everyone into LGBTQ persons. Nor does anyone I know. Our liberal philosophy and theology would be best described as “live and let live.”
Ted, you are welcome to disagree with me, but please do not twist my words or call me names, as in “paranoid.” I did not say that Liberals were “attacking” anyone, let alone forcing young people to transition. I was saying that the Liberal policy of only allowing the approach of “affirmation” followed by medical transition is causing children who are not transgender to be medically transitioned. Girls are being disproportionately affected by this. As of a decade ago, 90% of transgender people were male to female transitioners. Today, 70% of transgender transitioners are female to male. This trend is going on in other countries as well. Due to a 4,400% increase in girls coming out as “transgender” over the past decade, the NHS in the UK decided to study the problem. Was that the result of my paranoia? Or do you think that there were political/social causes?
If there are only a small number of detransitioners, how did they create thousands of Peak Trans comments on Reddit alone? Look at their multiple threads on “Peak Trans.” They are up to Peak Trans IX (starting with Peak Trans I) and each thread has hundreds to thousands of comments in it. For instance, Peak Trans III has 1.2 thousand comments alone. (https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/bripts/peak_trans_ix_tell_your_story_here/)
Also, you have met transgender people through your OWL program, and through friends/relatives which comprises a very select group of people, as they would all (or mostly) be from Massachusetts and many would be in some way affiliated with your church. Looking solely at that group would constitute selection bias and any observations you would make could not be extended to people outside of that demographic.
Further, it is not “paranoia” to value the research and work of a trained mental health professional/researcher over the views of Transgender Activists (who are the ones who see all therapy for transgender kids as “conversion” therapy.) Transgender problems are very different from being gay, and I think that only when it comes to the latter could we call the therapy “conversion” therapy. I say this because you would have to assume that “gender” was innate (as sexual behavior is) in order to apply this idea to transgenderism. Unless you have a test for measuring “gender,” you cannot prove that it is innate. I, and millions of other people think that gender is a set of rules created by society in order to establish roles associated with one’s sex. With respect to using a therapeutic approach for the majority of children, I agree with Dr. Kenneth Zucker. Let’s look at his credentials versus yours.
From Wikipedia:
“Kenneth J. Zucker is an American-Canadian psychologist and sexologist. He was named editor-in-chief of Archives of Sexual Behavior in 2001. He was psychologist-in-chief at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH)[1] and head of its Gender Identity Service until its closure in December of 2015.[2] Zucker is a professor in the departments of psychiatry and psychology at the University of Toronto.
Zucker collaborated with Susan Bradley, collecting clinical and research data over a period of twenty years and became an international authority on gender dysphoria in children (GDC) and adolescents.[3] In 2007, Zucker was chosen to be a member of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Gender Identity, Gender Variance, and Intersex Conditions, and in 2008 he was named chair of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on “Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders” for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5. He previously served on workgroups for the DSM-IV and the DSM-IV-TR.[4]”
I have read some of Dr. Zucker’s research and have heard him speak on more than one occasion. Many mental health professionals and physicians agree with his approach. He says that what is wrong with the people you know as “transgender” is that they suffer from “gender dysphoria.” That’s right, it’s an illness of sorts, just like intersex people have a disorder of sexual development. It is *Trangender Activists* who disagree with Zucker (an internationally recognized expert). And, that is who you are agreeing with, as if Activists would know better than medical researchers who have formally studied the problem using scientific methods. And, yet, that is what you expect me, and other non-believers in Gender Identity Ideology, to go along with. Sorry, I can’t.
“Since the mid-1970s, Zucker has treated about 500 preadolescent gender-variant children to have them accept the gender identity they were assigned at birth until they are at an age he believes they may determine their own gender identity.[12] Considerable disagreement exists between academic sex researchers, who say the sciences supports Zucker’s approach, and activists who compare it to conversion therapy attempting to change gay men and lesbians into heterosexual men and women.”
I urge you to consider that Dr. Zucker, and the many academic sex researchers who agree with him, are pointing to the same problem I have been describing to you in my comments.
In my opinion, as more detransitioners come forward to tell their stories, it will be impossible to ignore the fact that there are many more of them than you are willing to admit exist. Perhaps when that becomes self-evident, the Liberals, who insist on teaching Gender Identity Ideology in many public schools, as if it were established scientific fact (it is not), will consider allowing parents to opt-out, if they prefer to teach their children about such matters themselves. When this happens, the high rate of co-morbid mental health problems which are seen in most kids who think they are “transgender” may fall (hopefully).
In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you would consider the fact that many females do not want to share their private, women-only spaces with males. It is one thing to share a bathroom with men you know, such as friends and family members, and an entirely different thing having to share a bathroom with all men, regardless of who they are. As the #MeToo movement has shown us, there is a widespread problem of women facing sexual assault and harassment, which most women would like to be able to avoid.
Please review a recent article in the Washington Post about the rising problem of misogynistic hate crimes towards women fueled by men who believe in “male supremacy.” (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/yoga-shooting-incel-attack-fueled-by-male-supremacy/)
“Scott Paul Beierle’s attack on a Florida yoga studio was fueled by male supremacy, a movement with ties to other hate groups…. It is a kind of hatred that experts in extremism warn is becoming more common and more dangerous, providing what amounts to a new feeder network for white supremacy and neo-Nazi groups. ‘More and more, we see misogyny as the gateway drug for extremists,’ said Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of more than 20 people interviewed to compile this account of Beierle’s history and the phenomenon it represents.”
We may have to agree to disagree on the issue of Transgenderism, but I would appreciate it if you would keep an open mind about the prevalence of problems with the Transgender Movement. I can’t help but think that you are biased in favor of transgender people (versus females and detransitioners) because of the positive experiences you have had with the transgender individuals you know.
Ubiety, several things.
I did read what you wrote and I never follow any party line or any other belief that I haven’t studied throughly. I make my own educated decisions. Do you?
Aren’t males different from you? All women must be cautious of their surroundings and not make decisions that might put them in danger – within reason. It’s a bit of an irrational fear to give up walking places or riding a bike because there will be men around.
Referring to yourself as “gender non-conforming” in the same sentence you say you don’t believe in gender identity, sounds like you are somewhat confused.
You continue:
“Many of us “tomboys” are grateful that we are not kids today because, in the current environment, we would be pressured into transitioning to live as men.”
(That statement is blatantly false! Who do you think is doing this pressuring? Backup please.)
“The female detransitioners say that they have no role models of “masculine” women because, according to them, young people today can’t be tomboys the way I was when I was a child in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And, they only see images of women who are “girly-girls” in the media/entertainment industry.” (I don’t know what you are referring to as “masculine women” but If these folks are only seeing “girly-girls” in media then they are not looking in the right places.)
A large study of transgender adolescents found that only 1.9 percent of those who hit puberty and start puberty blockers decide to stop treatment.
There is more debate around how likely prepubescent children are to later not identify as transgender. For this reason, they are not offered hormone therapies. They also, by definition, have not yet started puberty, and thus there is no puberty to block and no need for hormone therapy.
It’s possible that many prepubescent transgender children will, in fact, change their minds about transitioning medically. We don’t have great research to know.
Luckily, the interventions that doctors would recommend for kids this young are completely safe and reversible. Medical guidelines advise that prepubescent children not be offered any hormonal interventions. What a psychologist or psychiatrist might recommend is allowing the child to “socially transition” if the child so desires.
A social transition may involve the child taking on a new name or new pronouns, or wearing stereotypical gendered clothing. Mostly, it means not placing restrictions on how your child wants to express their gender. A social transition is, of course, completely reversible, and not inherently dangerous.
Sex is biological based on which genitalia a person is born with. Gender is determined in a person’s brain. A combination of the two, sex and gender, sometimes fit nicely together and sometimes they don’t. You can choose to believe anything you want, but the facts show that a gender identity does exist.
A child of either sex cannot truly identify with their gender until they are older and their brain is more fully developed. Many children try out what it’s like to be different from the social norms for their sex – such as wearing shoes, and clothes, participating in activities, having favorite colors and other things
that don’t fit society’s ideas. Some actually think they might have been born the wrong sex but all caregivers and others need to do is support them in their exploration.
Thank you Marti, for bringing the 411.
@Marti Bowen
Marti Bowen wrote: “It’s a bit of an irrational fear to give up walking places or riding a bike because there will be men around.”
Misconstruing someone’s words as a basis for calling them names (”irrational fear”) is merely an ad hominem argument (personal attack), which is never a valid retort in a debate. I never said that I stopped walking and I did not say that I stopped riding my bike because “there will be men around.”
Here is what I said (elaborated): I said that I no longer ride my bike to do ERRANDS. The reason: due to the slow speed of bicycling, I would not be able to get home quickly enough in the event that I needed to use a BATHROOM. A public *bathroom* is where I do not want to encounter strange males because a bathroom is an enclosed area where a male could either corner and attack a woman or take photos of her while she is using the toilet (something which has been reported on the news). For example, in 2015 the University of Toronto changed their gender-neutral bathroom policy because two women became victims of voyeurism when they were filmed while showering.
There is nothing “irrational” about living like this. It is common sense. Perhaps you did not notice the comment I made on Saturday morning addressed to Ted Hess-Mahan. I gave him a link to an article in the Washington Post that you may want to read. It discusses the rising problem of misogynistic hate crimes towards women fueled by men who believe in “male supremacy.” (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/local/yoga-shooting-incel-attack-fueled-by-male-supremacy/). The man in the article went into a yoga studio to kill women. Men like him look for places where women congregate – like BATHROOMS or LOCKER-ROOMS. If males are allowed into what was formerly a women-only space, it will be easier for such men to harm women.
Marti Bown wrote: “Referring to yourself as “gender non-conforming” in the same sentence you say you don’t believe in gender identity, sounds like you are somewhat confused.
You continue:
“Many of us “tomboys” are grateful that we are not kids today because, in the current environment, we would be pressured into transitioning to live as men.”
(That statement is blatantly false! Who do you think is doing this pressuring? Backup please.)”
I am not the one who is confused, it is you. Most people know that when someone puts something about themselves in quotation marks, it is not something they would say about themselves, but something that someone else would say about them. If I am to blame for anything, it is assuming that you knew what quotation marks meant in the sentence I wrote.
I will explain what I meant. Most girls who get labeled as “tomboys” do not label themselves as such or even think of themselves this way. They get labeled by adults who disapprove of their behavior.
The “tomboy” label was applied to me because I ran around outside with boys, climbing trees and playing “rough and tumble” games. I played many sports with boys, including tackle football. Most of my interests were things that males prefer. I never played with dolls and refused to wear dresses, heels or make-up. Such behavior is considered by most adults (and some children) to be “gender non-conforming” for a female child. I do not agree that this is “gender non-conformity.” And, fortunately, when I was a kid, no one told kids that they had a “gender identity” so I and the other “tomboys” knew we were female and did not think we were “out of alignment” with our “boy brains” or that we were “boys in girls’ bodies.” Also, as an aside, because I have spent so much time engaging in activities with males from an early age, I do not see males as very different from me. What I do see is that males vary a lot from one another.
Conversation among women labeled as “tomboys” has started on articles about transgender and gender non-conforming children. One example involves a mother’s report that her daughter’s pediatrician asked her if she ever thought she was a boy. The child had never mentioned thinking this. The reason the pediatrician asked her is that the doctors pushing medical transition for “transgender” children, such as Johanna Olson-Kennedy, MD, have been recorded recommending that adults who have contact with children such as teachers, school counselors and pediatricians “identify” children who appear to be “gender non-conforming” to “make sure they receive early treatment for gender non-conformity.” I watched a video of her saying this.
So, if I were a child today, there is a good chance that a teacher or other adult would label me as “gender non-conforming” and I would be “encouraged” to socially transition as a first step to “affirming” my “male identity.” You have to read the materials used to teach kids about gender identity to understand how this leads to pressuring kids into believing they are “transgender” and that the only viable “treatment” is medical transition. There are many parents online who have said that their kids were told they were transgender by adults or Activists. The reason I, and other “tomboys,” think we would be forced into transitioning is that some Transgender Activists have been very aggressive in pressuring people to go along with their narrative, which is that people who do not conform to the typical gender behaviors of their sex should be diagnosed (or self-diagnosed) as “transgender” and must transition “to avoid committing suicide.” (I know people who have heard certain activists say this).
Here is an example of how kids get manipulated by the gender doctors. A girl with short hair and comfortable clothes was taken to a gender doctor by her mother because she looked more like a boy than a girl and the girls at her school thought there was a boy in their bathroom. Presented with this situation, the doctor proceeded to manipulate the child into thinking she was a boy. Here is a transcript of a talk this doctor gave at a conference which shows how this was done. (https://4thwavenow.com/2017/07/23/i-just-gave-him-the-language-top-gender-doc-uses-pop-tart-analogy-to-persuade-8-year-old-girl-shes-really-a-boy/)
“Johanna Olson-Kennedy, MD is the Medical Director of the Center for Transyouth Health and Development at Children’s Hospital Los Angeles, the largest transgender youth clinic in the US. She delivered these remarks at the inaugural USPATH conference in Los Angeles this past February, as part of a symposium entitled “OUTSIDE OF THE BINARY – CARE FOR NON-BINARY ADOLESCENTS AND YOUNG ADULTS.”
[2:10]: So at one point, I said to the kid, “so do you think that you’re a girl or a boy? And this kid was like…I could just see, there was, like, this confusion on the kid’s face. Like, “actually I never really thought about that.” And so this kid said, “well, I’m a girl, ’cause I have this body”
[2:34] Right? This is how this kid had learned to talk about their gender…that it’s based on their body.
[2:40] And I said, “oh, so …and I completely made this up on the spot, by the way, but …I said, “Do you ever eat pop tarts?” And the kid was like, oh, of course. And I said, “well you know how they come in that foil packet?” Yes. “Well, what if there was a strawberry pop tart in a foil packet, in a box that said ‘Cinnamon Pop Tarts.’? Is it a strawberry pop tart, or a cinnamon pop tart?”
[3:00] The kid’s like, “Duh! A strawberry pop tart.” And I was like, “so…”
[3:12] And the kid turned to the mom and said, “I think I’m a boy and the girl’s covering me up.”
Here’s a comment Olson-Kennedy made on Reddit during a Q&A session:
“Question: astriarch
39 points ·
1 year ago
How do you handle trans youth who do not have the support (legal, emotional, or financial) of their parents?
Answer: Dr_Olson-Kennedy
Medical Director | Center for Transyouth Health and Development
79 points ·
1 year ago
Depends on their age. For minors, it can be tricky. Trying to find support groups can be helpful. I really try to help parents understand the importance of their support, but I have to admit I lay awake at night thinking about all of the kids who are not getting care. :(”
In other words, if it were up to her, she would ensure that more kids had their gender-atypical behavior medicalized, even if their parents would rather not take this approach.
If you want to read more about this type of problem, visit the blog 4thWaveNow – “A community of parents & others concerned about the medicalization of gender-atypical youth and rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD).” https://4thwavenow.com/
Some of what you have stated about transgenderism is based on materials created by activists, not scientists. I have formal training in neuroscience. There is no credible scientific evidence proving that gender resides in the brain or that anyone is born with a gender. Gender is a psychological concept and a sociological term, not a biological one. Further, the brain changes in response to its environment. This is called “neuroplasticity.” No one can be born with an unchanging sociological trait which determines whether they feel male or female. In fact, it could be argued that due to the differences in our individual brains, and differences in our DNA, and differences in our environment, that each of us is distinctly different to the degree that there can be no “norm” for what being “male” or “female” feels like.
Just a few points… puberty blockers are not harmless. Look up the Lupron lawsuits to see how many children and adults have had serious side effects from using such a drug (GnRH agonists). The long-term consequences of using puberty blockers in Gender Dysphoric children is unknown due to a lack of credible long-term studies.
Dr. Kenneth Zucker, an internationally recognized expert in Gender Dysphoria, also says that social transition is *not harmless* because it reinforces a child’s false belief that they are the opposite sex. Allowing them to socially transition increases the odds that they will want to medically transition down the road. (Kenneth J. Zucker (2018): The myth of persistence: Response to “A critical commentary on follow-up studies and ‘desistance’ theories about transgender and gender non-conforming children” by Temple Newhook et al. (2018), International Journal of Transgenderism)
Read Dr. Zucker’s work to see why I said that some of your facts reflected activist views instead of scientific views. He discusses the research on Transgenderism in his own papers and you can use the papers he cites as a basis for your own research (if you’re interested in learning more).