I’ve seen these thin-red-line lawn signs popping up around Newton, presumably in response to the NFD v. Fuller beef. Maybe the Newton Fire Department should reconsider the campaign.
Echoing the imagery of the thin-blue-line campaign is risky business in this time of heightened awareness of systemic racism and bias. At best, displaying the thin-blue-line flag is highly correlated with overt racism. And, it promotes an us v. them mentality that is eroding citizen trust in the police.
So, not really sure what the firefighters are thinking escalating in this particular manner. Not winning me over.
To be honest, the thin blue line & thin red line are memorial flags for fallen officers/fire fighters. These flags have been around a long time. 911 dispatchers, EMS & nurses have a thin line flag too. People who are offended by a memorial flag, but proudly fly the pride flag or the black lives matter banners are where the problem lies. I believe in ALL of these flags, pride, BLM and the thin line flags. Everyone has the right to showcase what they believe in. People are creating an “us vs them”mentality, not flags. What doesn’t win me over is people forgetting who rushes in to save them time & time again. The system is not perfect but this is way far off base.
Sean–this is a firefighter’s flag, and it means what the firefighters say it means. If you ask them, they probably tell you that it honors firefighters and memorializes their colleagues who died saving people and property.
If a firefighter or anybody else wants to display this flag on his or her property, that is their right. They should not have to answer your baseless accusations that the flag is “highly correlated with overt racism”. Your post is not only contrived; it’s incredibly rude. Those firefighters risk their lives for everyone in this city. They don’t discriminate. They will rescue anyone from a burning building. Period.
If you wish, as you have implicitly done, to label as racist anyone in the Newton Fire Department (or any of their supporters here in Newton), why don’t you talk about people’s words and deeds instead of a flag that you have so uncharitably misconstrued.
Let’s be clear about what you’re doing: using the term “racism” as a cudgel to stop others from exercise their freedom of speech (by flying a particular flag). You are abusing the term “racism”. And when you do that, you undermine the cause of people who are working hard to redress real instances of racism.
I’ll bite…Luckily there really is no need to win you, or anyone else over Sean, in regards to your trolling piece (which seems to be what most of your recent Blogs have been btw).
The fact of the matter is many people (like you I presume based on your post) find something to be offended about and change the history or meaning behind it to fit a particular narrative. My grandfather was a Newton Police Officer, who spoke of the “thin blue line” when I was a child. Separates that good from the evil, or so I thought. That is until someone decided to assume it was associated with white supremacy and now it’s essentially outlawed.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/magazine/2020/06/09/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag-309767
Here’s a splendid idea, enjoy your easy going life in Newton, with relatively nothing to worry about. Your life will go on just fine and possibly even a little more stress free if you don’t worry so much about a cancel culture checklist of things to be offended about. I mean it was only a matter of time before the thin red line offended you like the blue line did.
https://patch.com/massachusetts/newton/newton-candidates-should-denounce-anti-police-activists
Maybe use the large platform you have to support and unite citizens and public safety employees rather than putting down those few that still have a little pride in their careers
This post is gross even by Sean’s standards. Truly despicable.
@DBryson: Bravo. You’re spot on.
It’s shame that Mr. Roche seems to be finding time for V14 the last few days.
Sean Roche: The neighborhood around Station 4 now looks like a yacht club as decorated by a colorblind cub scout. Our staff finds it hilarious that NFD doesn’t realize the image it’s presenting to the world (it rhymes with “hangry, tite, pentitled, tracist”).
(Our beat at WalthamWatchNews.wordpress.com is Waltham first—but we visit our neighboring towns and cities.)
If you want these flags to go away, you might only need to point out that the goofy thin red line flag bears some resemblance to the black-and-red anarchist flag popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries. They might just tear them down and try to forget the whole thing. You’re welcome.
Psst, hey, DBryson: Did you read that Politico article before posting? Maybe you missed the part where the thin blue line idea in the US has always had white supremacist and police violence undertones?
I’ll hang a flag for the NPD and NFD all day everyday. Sean you are a disgrace.
Gore, and I don’t know what you and Sean are doing here in Newton/Waltham. Flights to Portland are cheap and they’ll even keep the middle seat free.
If you aren’t trying to burn down a federal courthouse do you REALLY care about BLM?
I have to agree with previous posts about the sacrifices of first responders. These jobs are difficult, stressful and harrowing. The people who sign up for this work and help keep our community safe see a lot of tough scenes in their careers. That work and skill deserves admiration and support.
But to me the reasoning for flying the firefighter’s flag is indeed very, very similar to the justification people use for the “thin blue line” flag – a very sensitive issue right now. As with the “All Lives Matter” slogan, the blue line banner often acts to deflect away criticism of bad policing practices and cultures that hurt people. Like saying “all lives matter” in response to the BLM movement, many people feel that flying the Thin Blue Line kills conversations about policing. And, as shown in Sean’s link, the blue line flag has sometimes been co-opted as a symbol of bigotry thinly veiled under “law and order”.
I understand that everyone sees this symbol differently. And we’re all seeing different pictures of society right now, driven by both newsfeeds and news networks. I can understand why some of my friends and neighbors feel the need to come to the defense of the police right now, based on what they’re seeing.
I’ve also seen things from the “other” “side.” I make aerospace systems as part of my job, so I’ll try to make a personal analogy. After seeing a plane crash, doesn’t everyone suddenly feel much more wary of planes? And some who’ve seen multiple crashes would probably never trust planes again. Of course, there are ways to rebuild people’s trust in airplanes: those responsible for the crash, whether an it was due to an engineering mistake, a pilot’s error or corporate negligence, should be held accountable. But also, we would expect that EVERY airline and EVERY pilot would bear some extra level of scrutiny – and they would need to bear that scrutiny to earn back their customers’ trust. It would be unthinkable for an airline executive or a pilot to get angry with those crash witnesses and ask them “how could you POSSIBLY distrust our planes?” especially if they hadn’t showed the public how they would systematically address a potentially fatal risk.
And sometimes, an event like the Hindenburg explosion or the crash of the Concorde prompts us to completely redesign and re-envision our aircraft – moving away from the old way of doing things. Either way, now is the time to go back to the drawing board, and not to deny the problem.
If our firefighters are displaying the red-line banner to honor those who’ve sacrificed, shouldn’t police and other first responders be allowed to do the same? This doesn’t seem like a “slippery slope” argument – it seems like fairness. That’s my concern with the Thin Red Line: it sets us up a stupid ideological battle in which we end up having to measure the worth of human beings.
There’s lots of arguments to have right now. Let’s not have this one. It plays right into the hands of the people who want to see us divided. I hope we can find another way of honoring the good and crucial work of first responders.
Gorelowell, because a flag and term, which was used at least prior to 1922, was used by a racist police Chief somewhere in the 1950’s it has always had white supremacist and police violence undertones? I’m sorry I didn’t see that in the article.
While I could never excuse the behavior of a racist police Chief 70 years ago, I can certainly point out that it’s easy for you to twist that and blow it out of proportion.
Good to see chance culture hasn’t become prevalent in Waltham as it has in Newton, but based on your post I have no doubt you’ll find offense to something and make enough noise to get it taken down no matter who may have other beliefs or feelings.
@Sean-
The article in the TAB gave me the impression that it was 1 (one) person who rang the doorbell over at the fire station, saw the “offensive”flag and promptly called the mayors office.
The mayor immediately demanded that the flag be taken down. I’ve been seeing some form of these flags since 9-11. Why are they suddenly a problem now? There are 90 thousand plus residents in Newton.
Is this really the way we want to do business? If so, we are in trouble, but that’s not really your true concern or point of this thread. Power, control and fear is.
Frighten, harass, henpeck, and nag enough people and they will finally shut the heck up, behave themselves and toe the party line. That’s the real aim hear and it is a fools errand pursued by cowards.
I suspect you are better than that. Maybe not.
I’ve asked you this before and I’ve never
gotten an answer from you:
In our city fraught with “systemic racism“
What specific, measurable steps are you or have you, a white privileged male, personally taken or taking to integrate your own all white neighborhood? Going to city hall or other parts of the city calling other people racists doesn’t count..
How about it? What are you doing?
I can appreciate your deep concern, which is why you should call city hall or mayor fuller directly if you or anyone in your household, or better yet neighborhood, needs fire or police service. I would count on staying fiercely healthy & stay safe, because it sounds like you are on your own…
My comment is awaiting moderation.
The speech police are back in town
Wait… did the person who complained to city about the flag (which forced it to be taken down) just reveal themself?
Wait, no, the person who complained did not “reveal himself”
Read it again Bugek. That’s why I wrote “one”. It was ONE person complaining that resulted in the flag being taken down in the fire station. That’s ONE out of NINETY THOUSEND residents.
Using that flag is simply a bad PR move. Many associate the blue line flag with racism and the red line flag is too similar.
Here’s a background article on the “Thin Blue Line” flag, from the Marshall Project:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag
@Sean-
While you’ve got the stage and moral high ground here, might i suggest you begin a thread on products produced by slave labor? Apparently a good deal of the bicycling outfits I see on our city streets have been produced by forced child labor in other countries. Any outrage you can muster for this?
Do counsel on the correct response to this..
Maybe our friend bicyclist “Michael” from Needham can add to this as well..
@MMQC-
You may be right about that.
Please find and read the article in the TAB about the flag taken out of the fire station. Having an issue with a sign or symbol is legitimate, and should be examined or discussed – to a point. Having a flag or symbol eliminated because of the complaint of one person with no other input or discussion seems ludicrous.
Anything is possible now. If you don’t like something, tear it down, rip it up, smash it up, or destroy the people behind it seems to be the way we are going. There no longer seems to be any tolerance for debate or discussion.
The way the sequence of events described in the article gives every indication that this was a purposeful targeting of that flag in that station with a specific goal – elimination of that flag- as the outcome. This wasn’t a case of someone driving by a house or business, seeing a sign or flag and then complaining. The article says the person rang the bell at the fire station, saw the flag, and immediately complained to the mayor’s office. It seems to me highly likely that the complainer already knew the flag was there and was just looking for an opportunity to make an issue of it.
The question is how much do we want to be offended by, or cancel?
For some…the need to be Woke has watered down it’s intent by obsessively looking for the worst in everything.
Was going to make a joke about, “I bet he would find racism in The Teletubbies”, then decided to Google it… lo and behold, someone has!
https://liberapedia.wikia.org/wiki/Teletubbies
We spend way too much time trying to divide than unite. There HAS TO be a balance between ignorant bliss and obsessively painting a scarlet letter (R) on everything and everyone.
Matt, balancing your “pervasive wokeness” argument is that fact that symbols have always been powerful and tricky things. They can easily be appropriated for uses and meaning outside of their original intent, even by groups that might be abhorrent to the original creators. That’s sometimes done intentionally to sew discord, chaos, and confusion.
And there’s no controlling that. It can spread like wildfire, and attention brought to it just helps it perpetuate. Pepe the Frog is the canonical example of symbol appropriation. The American flag has been co-oped effectively by any number of narrow political entities over our country’s history.
Yes, we need to develop maturity in understanding that symbols don’t map one-to-one to meaning or cause. But to pretend that’s easy is to deny the power of symbols and the reason we use them to begin with.
I’m totally blown away by the level of hatred, intolerance, and destruction being wrought on this city by its own residents and politicians. I’ve lived here since 1972. It was never this bad, and it’s going to get worse. Way worse. The pandemic has taught us nothing. People are just as selfish, rude and narcissistic as they were before.
Everyone needs to be rowing in the same direction in order for the boat to go forward. Our electorate is incapable of doing that. We are getting exactly what we asked for and deserve. It’s very sad.
Defend the blue and red Lines.
@Mary No need to reply with your sarcastic comments.
I completely agree with @paulgreen. Well said. This post and the comments are why this site is not taken seriously by citizens of Newton.
Critizing police is one thing but to imply Newton firefighters are racist or implicit is a bridge too far.
When they are rushing into a burning building to save your family’s lives, the last thing on their mind is “race”
Our city’s hiring practices vastly outweigh any interpreted symbolism of some sign. Does anyone know the ethnic composition of our city’s first responder workforce, such as police and fire fighters? Does it reflect the diversity of our city, or of the State? If so, great! If not, maybe that’s where we need to reflect.
@Dulles,
Does anyone know the ethnic composition of the Executive Office? Is Mayor Fuller’s staff ethnically diverse? What about the Department Heads in her Administration? For that matter, what is the ethnic composition of the entire City workforce? Why just focus on first responders? If Mayor Fuller is serious about racial diversity and dealing with systemic racism, she needs to look at the big picture. Change is hard, but it starts at the top.
The red line flag is currently flying at City Hall.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GeFmTq5BVfD2gdlIbhtZzR-76XByL2tB/view?usp=sharing
@TheWholeTruth – To answer “why focus on first responders” — it’s because this whole thread has been about “thin blue line” and “thin red line” flags and the supposed symbolism. If we’ve got demonstrated diversity in the first responder workforce that cuts of all this “symbolism” nonsense at the knees. Diversity in our public sector agencies would be public information anyway, no?
Since we’re on the topic another reason for “why focus on first responders” for diversity in the workforce: last year I witnessed an elderly pedestrian struck while crossing in a crosswalk in Auburndale. It became immediately clear that the pedestrian was injured, but did not speak English. I called 911, got transferred to Newton and requested dispatch to send anybody who speaks Chinese (nevermind Cantonese vs. Mandarin or dialects). Nothing. It made for a tough situation because the old man had clearly been hurt, and nobody could communicate with him. Not that ethnicity means language ability… but it was a clear first responder skills gap that day.
@Dulles,
You conveniently left out one key word when quoting me…”just”.
You know nothing of the meaning of these flags and the “nonsense” you mention.
How dare you belittle the sacrifices made by firefighters by calling it “nonsense”.
If we are going to look at the ethnic background of our first responders, we should be looking at the ethnicity of ALL City employees. Only then can we make real, honest change.
If we “just” focus on fire and police, we do ourselves and out City a huge disservice.
As for your 9-1-1 call, you are correct when you say ethnicity does not equal language skills.
Stop throwing unnecessary fuel on this fire.
This is a really frustrating topic.
I think and hope that most people flying this flag are doing it to support and memorialize firefighters.
I think and hope that most people who are pointing out the fraught history of this particular flag still support the firefighters and the important work they do for our city.
I would like to think that even if we disagree about the appropriate outcome, we can avoid assuming the worst of each other and try to have a constructive conversation about the best way to show support and reverence for our city’s firefighters, the work they do, and those we’ve lost.
@TWT —
>>You conveniently left out one key word when quoting me…”just”.
Ok. “why just focus on first responders”? That said, this thread’s about Newton’s firefighters.
>>You know nothing of the meaning of these flags and the “nonsense” you mention.
>>How dare you belittle the sacrifices made by firefighters by calling it “nonsense”.
If you were not clear what I was saying, then please do not jump to conclusions and misrepresent my statement.
I thought it was clear that ‘supposed symbolism’ refers to Sean’s claimed racist subtext. Not the *actual symbolism* intended by these flags.
>>If we are going to look at the ethnic background of our first responders, we should be looking at the ethnicity of ALL City employees. Only then can we make real, honest change.
The topic of this thread was, and is, about thin red line (and thin blue line). My point is that diversity in Newton’s fire fighters and police departments PROVES Sean is wrong. A look at the hiring practices can be clear & obvious proof to everyone what Sean is claiming is nonsense. That’s why I asked the question.
>>Stop throwing unnecessary fuel on this fire.
See above. I asked a question about diversity for a good reason — to prove Sean wrong. Maybe that’s inflammatory to Sean, but if he flames me for it, I can take it.
One great way to answer the question as to why these signs and flags are appearing now in more volume is to put Black Lives Matters signs next to, for example, the red line signs that have been multiplying on the fences over the Mass Pike lately, then see what happens. Do the messages coexist, as they could, or will people melt into All/Blue/Red Lives Matter coded responses?
I’m not primarily interested in questioning what these symbols mean, but the timing of the fits people are having over these signs is telling. Prove me wrong.
Maybe people need to stop worrying what others say when they disagree with something and get all butt hurt. Firefighters and police, need to have a way to show solidarity and honor those that fall in the line of duty. I was a volunteer firefighter for 10 years, and my Uncle was a 35 year veteran, when he died we flew that flag and we will continue to fly that flag in memory of fallen Firefighers.