The old Orr Block buildings along Walnut Street that will eventually become the mixed use Washington Place project will begin coming down today. Full details are here, including details about temporarily rerouting pedestrians during the process.
Orr Block demolition begins today
by Greg Reibman | May 29, 2018 | Newtonville | 67 comments
Looking forward for the northside to finally have a walkable, vibrant downtown area. I just hope the retail can survive. Hope to see stores such as
Bicycle shop
Music school or store
Kids activities
Starbucks
Bagel store
Decent pizza
Bugek you know there’s a Starbucks literally 500 feet away right? Not to mention George Howell.
There’s Starbucks north of the pike in Auburndale and Newton Corner too. And some killer pizza – Max & Leo’s, Sweet Tomatoes, Boston House of Pizza, and more.
Nonantum downtown is slowly transforming into a wonderful walkable drag. (I contend all it needs is traffic calming measures and a good cafe)
I hope some day you visit us up here.
Yuppie
I want to walk only… the whole point is to restrict car usage
Starbucks is a strange item to see on a wish list… I’d much rather see an independent coffee shop. But yeah, there is potential for nice retail there. Just keep the bank branches out.
@Newtoner “Just keep the bank branches out.”
And maybe a moratorium on nail salons 🙂
I agree with @yuppie scum that Nonantum is gaining traction with a lot of great stores, cafes and restaurants. I was in Olivia’s Bistro for the launch and the rebuild is beautiful. It adds a very nice cocktail bar to the neighborhood. Also, the fact that Moldova is expanding is a great sign.
Of course, I still love the old school breakfast and lunches at Eddie’s.
Newtoner,
Whats not to love about starbucks, you can hang out there all day and use it as a home office.. plus it doubles as a public restroom now. You dont even need to buy their overpriced coffee
Bugek
Way to support local business, by hanging out all day and not spending anything. You could just go to the library.
Of course Starbucks is now a geographical unit. “Proceed north for two Starbucks, then go west for 5 Starbucks…”
Rick frank
The humour to be found in Starbucks new store policy is clearly lost on you 🙂
Most downtown will need a chain store to act as anchor tenants to attract more foot traffic. Starbucks would achieve this
If CVS and The Barn are eventually moving into that space (rumor mill), why not Starbucks (which I dislike)?
I’ve heard the rumors about The Barn. Does anyone know what’s supposed to happen where the Barn is now? I really feel like I can’t keep up with all of the happenings….I JUST found out about West Newton’s Santander location today and I live near it!
It’s pretty hard to plan post developer-purchases-whole-street. You do know he bought the Whole Foods lot and building as well? Well we have existing zoning. And I doubt he would have raised all the necessary capital if he didn’t think he could get the variances to do whatever the h*ck he wants. We can vision all we want to here…in the end, the cynic in me says it’s all pointless – money talks and V14 squawks.
Btw, my office is right above the Starbucks in Newton Center. And I see people sitting there for multiple hours.
So I’m a resident and a business owner in Newton. If it’s going to be multiple use, in addition to first floor retail I’d like to see second floor office space for small companies/ dentists/law firms etc. and that requires more sturdy construction from what I can tell. Doesn’t seem to be part of this new kind of multi use, afaict
By the way, did anyone else notice that 793-821 Washington Street (Rice Valley, Joe’s Barber Shop, Pizza Shop, etc..) was sold to WASHINGTON DEV LLC in March 2018. The Barber told me this person also tried to buy 822-833 (Dunkins, Cook,etc..) but was rebuffed.
What Rick Frank said… developers can talk about hosting virtuous/desirable retailers all they want. They can promise independent bookstores or discount grocers or even a hardware store. In the end, retail space doesn’t discriminate. Just like with housing, whoever can afford the premium rent is going to be our new (commercial) neighbors.
Who can afford premium rent? Boutique clothing stores, real estate offices, banks, salons/spas, and maybe a CVS or a Starbucks. In other words, prepare for more of the same.
Didn’t know the Bram building was sold, but not surprised.
The other thing is that if the CVS, banks, etc. move over to Washington, then there’s going to be pressure for the Walnut Street buildings to be sold and enlarged.
Again with the walkability of Newtonville. As a 38 year resident, I can assure folks that our neighborhood is walkable. My wife and I can walk to 4 supermarkets, CVS, UPS, banks, church (there is also a synagogue) barbershop and beauty salon, inexpensive restaurants, post office. There use to be a camera shop.. Are you a Starbucks , DD or independent coffee aficionado? We got them all within walking distance. Those who want to make Newtonville walkable, what are we missing that large developments will give us.
I think Dulles is right about the storefronts being filled with more banks, salons, and real estate offices. Maybe some they won’t be able to fill at all. It’s not an easy time for retail, so most of the storefronts would have to be service-based instead of retail. Hopefully we could get more creative and useful services than more banks and salons.
Yes Bob, I can walk to all of those places too. The walk is possible in a purely practical sense – as a means of getting from one place to another. It isn’t enjoyable now. It would be with wider sidewalks, plantings, safer street crossings, small plazas and slower traffic.
That’s the point.
Marti, ‘enjoyable’?? I am unable to understand why being able to do my errands without a car is not considered enjoyable enough for some folks. The walk to the library is enjoyable. Going to the ice cream store with the grandkids is enjoyable. Walking with my wife on our errands is enjoyable. Potted plants will really not make a major improvement from November to March will they?
What is not enjoyable in this neighborhood is the parking and congestion already existing around Cabot’s Ice Cream. Folks parked on the Beach St sidewalks makes walking difficult & dangerous; patrons parked by the fire hydrant; or today’s adventure-a tractor trailer double parked on Washington making a Cabot’s delivery. That is why I don’t walk that way when going out. And please don’t suggest calling the police. By the time they can respond, the offenders are most often gone.
How having more people with more cars (not all will walk or bike) is a good way to improve walkability and make the experience more enjoyable is beyond me. As Scrooge says in ‘A Christmas Carol’, I’ll retire to Bedlam.
793 Washington Dev LLC – http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSummary.aspx?FEIN=001314494&SEARCH_TYPE=1
and?
@Greg – I believe Amy was correcting my earlier post indicating that Korff bought 793-821 Washington St (Rice Valley, Joe’s Barber Shop, etc..) in March 2018 under the name 793WASHINGTON DEV LLC (not WASHINGTON DEV LLC).
@Fifth: thanks
793 Washington Dev LLC’s address is 57 River Street, Suite 106 Wellesely which is the address of Mark Development
For those out there keeping score… follow up on Claire by going to the Newton assessor’s website: http://assessing.newtonma.gov/NewtonMAWebApp/Default.aspx
and search for 39 Court Street Unit#1. Guess what? Korff owns this condo and he isn’t moving in there himself anytime soon.
What makes the corner of Walnut and Washington unpleasant is the Mass Pike. No one is going to sit outside in the new Orr Block building because of the pike noise, which does not quite down until 2am.
Go ahead, stand on the corner and listen.
If you want to make that intersection pleasant. You’d have to cover it over.
Yes, Korff owns 793-821 Washington. I moved my office there after 11 years in the Orr building, and Korff followed me 🙁 . He also owns the Barn area, of course, and plans to develop 400+ apartments there. The Barn store itself is supposedly planning to move to the Orr development (WP).
Newtonville is already walkable, of course. It has three coffee places (Starbucks, Dunkin, and Howell). It has two great pizzerias, the only pizza I eat really, and they have good subs too (which I eat way too often, my usual lunch). And great burritos. It certainly doesn’t need more national chain stores. Or nail salons (one more is coming to where Great Feet, a failed franchise, was).
What sucks here right now is the parking situation, though. I often have no place to park for the work day. So I don’t expect to renew my lease. The Orr Building had a lot; now there’s nothing but 2-hour restricted spaces and a handful of 12-hour meters on Washington that are gone shortly after daybreak. They should, while there is no Austin lot, allow 12-hour parking on the side streets more than a block back from the stores, leaving the unmetered spaces near the stores for 2-hour parking. Right now the whole deal seems to be a racket to get parking ticket revenue for the city.
Fred, your supposed to bike to work. Don’t you know? ;>) or take public transportation. Get with it! /( jk)
Welcome to my world. I have an office in Newton Center with no parking. And I’m going to stay there, but I have to pay 1 or 2 tickets a month. Which I consider my cost of parking. Very few retail and none of the second floor offices have parking for employees.
Regarding 12 hr parking spots: when Engler built 77 Court Street, he eliminated the lot where the car dealership workers parked. It is my understanding that at least a few of them took to parking on Washington in the aforementioned 12 hr spots.
Every time I drive by city hall I think about writing a petition to ban all parking around city hall by employees and make them eith bike to work or take public transportation….they should lead by example. Hypocrites all.
A major reason why housing is not affordable.
It’s not a Newton phenomenon- it’s practically everywhere. And rapidly increasing supply won’t make much difference.
https://www.axios.com/broad-based-pay-rises-retraining-automation-executives-3e68d31c-51bc-4bde-a362-7ce12b039e7c.html
The increase of automation will further widen the gap between owners/ shareholders and everyone else.
Rick Frank,
Low crime, great schools, tree lined streets, 30 minutes commute to Boston, access to T, commuter rail, express bus will never ever be affordable ‘relative’ to Boston
When people reminisce about when you could purchase a home in Newton for 500k, the price relative to Boston is likely the same today as it was back then.
I don’t believe its automation but “new economy” jobs, the folks with “new tech” skills are doing just fine, the rest are being left behind. Boston job growth has been driven by tech startups/biotech
We are experiencing what the mid-west rust belts experienced when manufacturing jobs were lost. Thank god Boston is at least attracting the “new economy” jobs here and this is the reason for the high house prices.. “small minority of new economy workers are able to outbid those in other job industries”
That’s not entirely true; I’m a software engineer, specializing in medical, scientific, and industrial software.
For the most part, software engineering salaries have been relatively flat for 20 years. Those looking for housing are either single and want to stay in the city or are looking outwards to Acton and beyond for houses with yards, etc. Software engineers were making in 60000 -100000 range in the 1990s now it’s up but only 80 -120k. Checkout any of the sites like Ziprecruiter, IEEE magazine, etc. so called “ new economy “ jobs, which I guess you might mean programmers working for Amazon, pay hasn’t kept pace. either. One of the other factors about pay is rising health insurance premiums. With a family plan costing 20k per year now, some of what would have been a salary increase has gone to premiums.
There’s some younger guys who make money on options with startups, but that was the case in the 80s – until the dot com bubble burst. That’s back again now, but the big tech winners are outliers ( and there are a lot of losers, you just don’t hear about them )
Chuck, you write “… that Nonantum is gaining traction with a lot of great stores, cafes and restaurants. I was in Olivia’s Bistro for the launch and the rebuild is beautiful. It adds a very nice cocktail bar to the neighborhood. ”
Something tells me this was not high on the list of needs of the long-time residents of this neighborhood. Just saying. But then, some folks seem to know what my neighborhood also needs so that it can start ‘gaining traction’ as you say.
I’ve been sitting back and reading all of these threads, and what I think some folks are missing is that property ownership isn’t static. We live in a free market system, with certain limited constraints. Zoning and permitting is one such constraint. The market provides others, like supply and demand and costs to borrow and build. Lots of folks on these blogs (and even our city councilors) ignore the facts on the ground.
A few points:
1) Cost to borrow is still at a relative low. It will be a few years for it to get relative high.
2) The region has a housing crisis. Not like San Fran or the high tech centers of California. But there is pent up demand, and limited supply. Supply is clearly being limited in part by zoning laws. The Govenor recognizes this (see the recent legislation) and it is also pretty obvious. I can cite multiple examples of zoning reducing the size and shape of projects or greatly increaseing costs. But for the sake of brevity, just making the simple point.
3) Property owners of undeveloper or underdeveloped real estate are often not in the best position to develop that real estate to maximize value. But they can cash out, and in a market like this with low cost of capital, they do.
4) Hence Washington Street. I’ve been wondering for a decade why it was somewhat static. I always assumed it was the Pike. But rents and financing costs make even difficult projects viable. And the noise issue with the Pike is less an issue with modern building techniques that block more sound.
5) The Owners have the right to sell. Buyers have the right to buy. Our system in Newton rewards buyers of means, since the more roadblocks that are put up around development, the more requirements that the buyer is someone who has sophistication and a deep balance sheet. It’s an ironic result for the folks who don’t like these projects, but the city is a hard place to develop, and larger projects are seen as worth the risk and time investment.
6) Once the property is acquired, the buyers can stick with current zoning (easy route), negotiate with the city, or go the 40B route.
You want to know what won’t stay the same? The property being sold/acquired. Because these aren’t cash flow based sales. These are sales based on some form of development on the site.
I could easily see a mix of different projects on Washington Street. The city should do more to improve it, make it more friendly to pedestrians and bikers, improve landscaping, make road improvements. But the projects are coming regardless. The property sales show the way, and absent major restrictions to zoning or reaching 40B, much of the talk is just talk on all sides.
So in my view, the city sees the inevitable. Development is coming. Multiple buildings are being sold. It wants to mold that so that mistakes and bad developments are limited, and to maximize values for the neighborhoods.
I’m curious as to how folks who oppose these changes think they get around current zoning or 40B. Delay tactics don’t work as well as they once did if the projects are a significant size. And you are playing chicken with a potential bad result at the end (a massive project). Or the developer can build a 3 story box, with few amenities. Or keep the site empty, or use it for parking.
Far better to engage, be realistic, craft a good project that has compromise, and push for a Improvement District type zone to improve outcomes all over washington street.
@bob Olivia’s was but one example. But yes, there is a turnover happening in Nonantum and this is part of that.
Worth noting: Olivia’s is owned by the same team who owns West St. Grill, so it’s a local restaurant catering to the needs of the local population. But if you look at the restaurant turnover in the neighborhood you can see a demographic shift. One Italian restaurant became Shaking Crab, another became a tapas bar, a third became Moldova.
I have to admit I’m trying very hard, but don’t really understand a lot of this. It seems to me the argument is, basically, between the development of Newton from what it is now to a greater population and housing base, with a significantly greater proportion of high-density ‘affordable’ and other housing, substantial population increase to service greater industry, thus increasing the tax base, and doing this while enhancing ‘livability’, with more bicycling and walking, public transportation access, using traffic diets, etc., having moderate green spaces among what appears will be block-after-block of high-rises along Washington St. and other thoroughfares. But, personally, I have to admit I just can’t forget why my family and I moved to Newton in the first place. That was in 1969. We had been living in Flushing, Queens, and then in lower Manhattan, when we first visited Newton on a trip to Boston, and fell in love with it, with the green, the quiet, the fresh air, the lovely houses and wonderful, human-scale village centers, the considerate and polite folks (compared to NYC) who lived here then, with all of it. And then i got a job and we moved here! It was incredible… just wonderful! We hadn’t been miserable in Queens or Manhattan, but Newton was indisputably paradise! Why anyone would want to change that with increased density, is beyond me. And some of you writing about this even used Queens as an example of what can be done here. I just don’t understand. I was born in Jamaica, Queens and my Dad built us a home on the Island where we moved when i was 13, to escape that! Please, please tell me I’m wrong, but it seems like some of you want to turn Newton into another Queens. Why? in many ways I do still feel Queens is ‘home’, but moving back there? Making Newton more like that? Well, you must be kidding.
“It wants to mold that so that mistakes and bad developments are limited”
What is your definition of “mistake” and “bad development”?
Be specific.
Alex, you nailed it.
Both Queens and Newton are diverse in terms of density and they vary from neighborhood to neighborhood. There are some parts of Newton that are already as dense as some parts of Queens.
I think there’s a big disconnect in different parts of Newton. There’s a big difference between a neighborhood like Nonantum versus a neighborhood like Oak Hill. What makes sense for one neighborhood might not make sense in another.
Rick and MMQC; Thank you. Yes, i agree that there are considerable differences between Jamaica Estates and mid-Jamaica, for example, and between Nonantum and Oak Hill, for example. Should Newton zoning, then, preserve the City’s overall diversity by keeping the structural characteristics, relative population densities, etc., of each neighborhood as they are now, and either static, or with strictly-constrained development? It appears the City is taking the latter direction and that ‘the devil is in the details’, as we say.
If change is afoot there are so many fun discussions to have on V14.
– How high is too high?
– How dense is too dense?
– How much affordable housing?
– Parking requirements?
– Bike Lanes?
– Road Diet?
– Public Spaces?
– Infrastructure upgrades needed?
– Who is paying for all this?
Parking requirements is a good question. I assume the buildings will come with some parking, but for one reason or another it might not be sufficient. (A family with a teenager could have 3 cars, roommates could each have their own car – and yes, yes, I know the Sean/Chuck types will be like “BUT BIKES!” yet the reality is that most people moving to Newton will have automobiles) So, if it impacts the amount of cars in the City, how will this impact the parking situation during the winter parking ban? More people shuffling their cars around at night and again at dawn, most likely?
A question I have is, for those of you who don’t live over here, what will happen to the us postal service trucks that take up practically all the parking from Lowell street to walnut street after 6 pm. Take a drive by tonight and see for yourself. Didn’t know this? That’s why you need to talk to us ”locals”.
“How high is too high?”
Well according to current zoning > 3 stories ( not sure what a “story” is numerically) is too high. He got a variance for 4 and 5 stories.
Not quite sure why the postal service didn’t sell. That s a parking nightmare.
It’s funny my Chinese friend Zhou Junwen who grew up in Beijing and became a US citizen about 30 years ago ( he is now about 70 ) can’t understand why people want to ride bikes ( that’s all he had until he came to the US). He doesn’t drive much and takes the bus but would never ride a bike now!
@ Frank could the fact that your friend is 70 have anything to do with his current lack of bike riding?
@MMQC: It doesn’t matter if you or I never ride a bike. If more folks do it means fewer cars between us and the next intersection. And if you build housing with less parking then you’re going to attract more Sean/Chuck type bike riding tenants and fewer three car families. That’s how you begin to address this problem.
Greg,
Most ‘regular’ folk would probably bike only 3 months out of the year.. and not everyday within those 3 months.
Economically, it doesn’t make sense to design a whole area for bikes which is only used by at most half the population 3 months out of 12.
Its definitely a nice to have but the money and effort would be better spent elsewhere. I would rather invest in a subsidized Newton Shuttle would could be used by 100% of all residents 100% of the time
Bugek: you need the whole megillah. Bikes, shuttles,safer sidewalks, rapid transit, car shares, etc. Put it all together and you start reducing the need to have those three cars that Mary is talking about. Households realize they may only need one and we’ve started to solve our traffic and parking problems… oh and, as a bonus, climate change and housing crisis too.
I’m 77 and still bike, though now try to stay out of traffic. Into my late 60’s, I biked to work from Waban to Cambridge about 3 times/week in good weather. Separated bike paths, like are on Vasser St. now, would have been great in Cambridge then, and would be great in Newton now!
@Greg nope. The Chinese (people not their political party) were always wanting to be like the West, and the vision of hundreds of people biking was “third world”. Now look at them. When I was there in 2007, there were still bikes but in Beijing there were highways with 7 lanes – On Each Side!!! Crazy. And polluted of course, although that was the year before the 2008 Olympics so they had shut down half the coal fired plants around Beijing to work on cleaning the air for the Olympic Games. They also had odd-even license plate restrictions in place.
It’s kinda like when I moved to Boston from (rural) Central New York State. I saw signs for “Pick your own apples, $15.00” in the suburbs. I was like “WTF? PAY to pick your own apples? what are you nuts?”. You buy them in the supermarket or the farm stand!
While I want there to be better biking conditions in Newton (I’m a very skittish but eager cyclist) I think the number of people who would give up their car in lieu of biking is probably very low. I don’t think biking will replace cars, but better public transit might. What family is going to move here, ditch their cars and bike? (And let’s be real – there will be a lot of new tenants with kids) Are families going to bike to extracirricular activities on a weeknight? Are families going to bundle up and bike when it’s 15 degrees out or getting dark at 4 PM? I don’t know anyone who does that. Even Chuck has admitted that they are a multi-car family.
@bugek
There was a subsidized shuttle, oh maybe 10-15 years ago. It went around newton with stops at the library, newtonville, other places. It got no traction. My wife was involved with it at the time I think (somehow, on a citizen committee as I recall).
I think a light rail that went from Newton Corner to NW Hospital would be awesome. Right down the middle of Washington Street. Probably too much $$$ outlay though.
Greg, you’re still living on Fantasy Island. “Bikes, shuttles,safer sidewalks, rapid transit, car shares, etc.” Bikes are mainly for the more athletically abled and young, and suck going up the hills, and of course only superior specimens like Chuck use them all year for shopping. Shuttles? What a waste of precious time, and who’s gonna pay? (Oh, I get it — north siders’ time isn’t worth as much as south siders’.) The sidewalks are plenty safe. Rapid transit is a state matter and as someone noted, Newton is very low on their list of priorities. Car shares? That’s just a euphemism for rent-a-car for folks who only need them on occasion. Why don’t you mention jet packs and flying cars? I saw them on the Jetsons and James Bond movies too.
But we do have people in City Hall thinking about *capping* the number of parking spaces per house, so that even a McMansion can only have two spaces. Gotta force people to be superior, like Chuck!
Greg Reibman writes “Bikes, shuttles,safer sidewalks, rapid transit, car shares, etc”
I would like to remind folks that ‘Field of Dreams’ was a fictional movie and Peter Pan where we all wish really hard to bring Tinkerbell back is a fantasy.
BTW, I was unaware after walking the streets of Newtonville for 38 years, that the sidewalks are unsafe. The only problem my wife and I run into are folks texting while walking and folks biking on the sidewalks.
Alex Blumenstiel …biked to work from Waban to Cambridge about 3 times/week in good weather.
How did you get from Waban to Cambridge the rest of the time? A rough calculation says you biked for 100 days +/-.
The sidewalks are pretty lousy in my part of West Newton. I noticed this in my stroller pushing days and there are at least 2 gentlemen I see regularly in wheelchairs and they frequently go on the street instead of the sidewalk because the sidewalks are damaged from roots or are grossly uneven. It’s pretty scary to see them on streets like Webster where cars zip by, but some of the sidewalks are must be impassible.
Bob, I took the ‘T’ from Waban most of the other days, and drove in a few times a month.
Also, 5 months x 4 weeks/month = 20 weeks x 3 days/week = 60 days of biking to work in Kendall per year. Accounting for weather, it wouldn’t actually have been that many. And, at about 8 miles each way, that isn’t really a lot of biking. I would also bike out to Sherborn, etc. pretty often, for recreation, and around town here-and-there regularly for many years. But not so much at my age now, because what would have been a minor injury then could very well be fatal, darn.
Rick you asked above for me to “be specific” regarding my definition of “mistake” and “bad development”?
Sorry to take some time to get back to you. Busy week.
Look, I’m tempted to reply that I’ll know it when I see it, but that doesn’t advance the discussion at all. So below are some basic things I’d be looking for. The list isn’t exhaustive, and I’m a bit tired, so I reserve the right to post again. Also, some of this is subjective, but some of it has strong support among urban planners who study how to build village type communities and encourage walkable and bikable communities with necessary car features (hey…I park too)
1) Apartment buildings with useless front space that block off the development from a common streetscape. Think Avalon in Nedham street. Pocket parks can be great. But without first floor retail, all you’ve got is either a pocket park only used by the tenants, or a random park surrounding by a moat of asphalt. This is what happens when bad design meets bad planning.
2) Not enough setback, crowded sidewalks, overwhelming apartment buildings (even if we disagree about 3, 4 or 5 floors, design matters a huge amount, and we’ve been failing on that front.)
3) Curb cuts and common design plan. Balancing a front street with not overhelming side streets.
4) Building creep. Just because Washington Street has 5 floors doesn’t mean Court Street gets 4. Side streets are side streets for a reason. I recognize that Court street apartments were a mistake for instance.
5) lack of gathering places. Outdoor space is huge, even if it is only used 7 months out of the year. Without a setback and interior courtyards, hard to make work.
6) creating a fund to deal with community improvements. I’d push for a BID (with the residential buildings having the contribute). Boston does it. Works great. Why can’t we? But we need to push for that now, especially as we seem to have one major developer calling the shots.
7) Frontage parking. Look at TJMax on Needham street. You’ve got Boston Ballet School, you’ve got Sierra Club traders, one restaurant, a bunch of parking. The shops don’t open up to Needham street at all, they threw in some fake looking design elements, and basically created the same old shopping center. That is pretty much what I fear for the Whole Foods/MArty’s megalots.
8) No landscaping or design elements for the Pike side
9) no push to make improvements to the two commuter rail stations.
10) Maximize long term affordable units.
Not everything can happen, but if accomondations are to be made, we sure as heck should get most of it.
@Fignewtonville – good points about design. One new development on Needham St that did a much better job on that front then TJ Maxx is the block with B Good in it. It opens to the street, parking is in the rear, there are outside tables just off the sidewalk, and the whole thing integrates nicely with someone actually walking on Needham St.
That’s exactly what makes our villages work as well as they do. When people drive there, as they most often do, they park their car, and then walk from store to store until they’re done. Needham St is the opposite. If people go there for three errands they typically drive from lot to lot to lot.
I see that as one of the biggest traps for any future Washington St development. Since it’s one long two mile stretch from Newton Corner to West Newton, it will be very easy to accidentally re-create the Needham St problems. People won’t walk the length of it for their errands. I hope any development is more geared to clustered retail that keeps the parking lot hopping to a minimum and encourages park-and-walk instead.
Just a random thought, has anyone been to woodbury commons outlets in ny in the last few years? They renovated it really nice ands its very vibrant and designed to be walkable
Imagine the enornous tax revenue newton would get by creating an outlet of the same size and quality. Traffic would be crazy but Newton would be swimming in so much tax revenue there could be an endless liberal wish list
Please correct me, if i’m wrong, but, in my understanding, when the City issued an RFI for Washington St. development, the sole respondent was a company owned by a developer already substantially invested in properties along Washington St. and who the City has already permitted to and is currently demolishing and will erect a new structure on one of those properties (the subject of this commentary). If so, it seems to me, personally, that Washington St. re-development is already, essentially a settled matter. (If this is the case, I’m not saying it is right or wrong, legal or not, or good or bad for the City.)
@Jerry @fig
What Jerry said:
“People won’t walk the length of it for their errands. I hope any development is more geared to clustered retail that keeps the parking lot hoping to a minimum and encourages park-and-walk instead.”
Is so important – And I was thinking if your goal is more walkable, the primary focus should be on designing for people with cars. Don’t assume that they are going to walk or bike from home – But that they are going to drive and park. If you make drive/park process as user-friendly as possible, then you may find that people will walk more from store to store. And yes, that also requires clustering stores.
I marvel at the design of Legacy Place and the similar cluster on rt9 where the mall used to be – Where cars park in middle surrounded by stores. Visiting both those places, I checked out many more stores and stayed more than an hour longer than I had planned on.
So, I think it would be useful to design for cars/retail first. Without a great experience for cars/retail, all else will fail. This means all the special interests need to be patient and stop making demands – Once the retail experience for people arriving by auto is worked out THEN design the special interest into the plan.
In web design, we have the phrase “Mobile First”, This means to design for people using mobile devices first because in most cases people will be using your website on a phone or tablet – Especially when it matters. This does mean that sometimes there are trade-offs – And when there are, you always decide with the mobile viewer in mind.
Since retail is really the engine for all this development – We’ve got to avoid being distracted and make the user experience for people arriving in cars is fast, useful, exciting and engaging.
I agree with Jerry/Fig when they mentions that a desirable set up would be to have parking but where the retail is set up to making walking from place to place feasible. I would much rather walk however I need to realistically drive to get to that area first. It is true that one huge problem with Needham st is it is set up to drive everywhere. You stop at each plaza do your errand than drive on to the next one. Honestly I avoid the area as much as possible because all the driving creates so much traffic regardless of time of day. I don’t love the set ups of Legacy Place (though once I park I walk everywhere) or the new Shopper’s World as the parking is at the visual fore front but I’m sure some centralized parking could be done better than those. I also agree that the new TJ Max plaza leaves a lot to be desired.