In a letter to the TAB, Shawn Fitzgibbons writes that he’s “an Eagle Scout who is ashamed of the Scouts‘ backwards policy [towards gays]” and “will be sending my medals back to the leadership of the National Boy Scouts in protest.”
Over the years, some people in Newton have argued that it’s unfair to associate the national Boy Scouts’ policies with what happens with our local scouts.
Anybody care to weigh in?
Unfair how? Local scouts don’t get to make their own rules do they? Local scouts are part of the National Organization. Is this any different from admonishing any religious entity that preaches anti-gay agenda? I’m friends with people of all religions and I can’t think of one organized religion that isn’t anti-gay. Unitarians maybe?
I hope that Shawn’s actions spur current scouts to take a stand against their organization and a grassroots movement will begin that will ultimately force the Scouts to rescind their hateful policy.
Kim – the Liberal streams of Judaism aren’t anti-gay. There are gay Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis and there are LGBT congregations (there’s one up here – can’t remember the name – and in NYC there’s CBST, led by Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum who is quite well known.)
And Kim is correct – the national BSA sets the rules. If local troops object to the national organization’s stances, they can actively work to have them change or they can choose to sever their connection with BSA, but it’s ingenuous to claim that they aren’t associated with the national organization – they are supporting it financially and by increasing its size.
Greg,
Please correct your headline. Shawn Fitzgibbons did not say that he’s ashamed of the Scouts. He said that he’s ashamed of this one policy of the Scouts. He pointed out that this policy is “contrary to everything else the Scouts teach about good citizenship.” His statement and action are aimed at helping to “save a great American institution from itself.” How is that not fair to our local scouts?
The way to be fair to local scouts is to disassociate their training and growth from this harmful, backwards policy. That probably takes some action.
The actions of Shawn and 179 other Eagle Scouts like him are warranted …and I’m afraid necessary.
Bruce,
Hate the intolerant policy, but love the group that has the intolerant policy?
Kim’s right. Splitting hairs.
Enough with asking Greg to change his headlines. This is a blog people. Not the news. Be as provocative as you need to be Greg. Bruce is splitting hairs on this one.
Sure, let’s give the homosexual scoutmasters and other leaders an opportunity to mess with the boys on camp-outs. What a bunch of politically correct and misguided opinions on this blog. You act as if there is no difference between being attracted to your own gender and being attracted to the opposite gender in a confined situation. Every homosexual will tell you that, before he considered himself such, he was simply attracted to his own sex, regardless of whether or not he understood that they might share that attraction.
I commend the Scouts on taking a stand that is unpopular with misguided individuals.
Barry – your comments are always so nasty that it is best for us all to just continue to ignore you and your hateful views. No need to reply.
If we’re going to play the alternative headline game: Fitzgibbons is ashamed of the Boy Scouts….has he done right by Newton troops?
A: yes.
As an Eagle Scout, I wrestled with that question a few times. during the 90s, I was working on the committee helping produce shows for one of the national conferences. I was very troubled with the rhetoric coming out of national reps for the BSA, but eventually decided that making my little corner of that universe a tolerant one was the best way to deal with it.
Also, many local councils defy (or ignore) the gay ban because they know it is hateful and not based in any reality about pedophilia. I can’t speak for Newton troops and the local council as for how they approach the policy.
As for me, I won’t be sending my medals in, but I was never tempted to sign my son up for the Scouts here either, largely because of that policy I can’t defend or honor. If he really wanted to join, I would probably have let him, but would also make sure he was aware of the issues.
Al Kno,
You call it “nasty”. I call it sensible. In fact, the other opinions here would create a destructive environment for the Scouts that I’m glad they are opposing.
All you lefties can do is brand those who disagree with you as “nasty”, “hateful”, “bigoted”, “homophobic”, etc. I never heard a logical retort. Only “hateful” retorts. The real “hateful” and “nasty” people are you, towards anyone who doesn’t buy into your religion. Kind of like the Jihadists who attack anyone world-wide, when someone opposes them.
What a crew you are.
No matter how open a local troop claims to be (and I did get in touch with a Newton Scoutmaster who said his troop basically ignores the policy) they still operate under the dark, discriminatory shadow that is cast by the national BSA. Gay young people will never feel totally welcomed. And that is wrong.
It would be great if current Newton Scout Leaders joined this protest. They would be powerful advocates to help push the BSA out of the 1950’s on this issue and ensure they are a strong organization for years to come. The Newton Human Rights Commission has tentatively agreed to facilitate a medals returning protest in November for anyone that is interested. I hope to find other Scouts to join this effort. If readers here know anyone who could help, please let me know!
@Shawn – thank you for taking a stand.
Shawn stated it just right and congratulations to him for making it to Eagle Scout. That is no small accomplishment. On Monday evening I was doing my first time ever night time sailing in a Rhodes 19 in 20 knot winds with Chris Campbell, a young guy who taught me my first sailing lessons at UMASS Boston a few years back. Chris is also an Eagle Scout and he feels exactly as Shawn does about this whole unfortunate decision by the Scouts. Shawn and Chris are two great guys I’m glad to have as friends.
Kim, mgwa is quite correct: I am very proud of the fact that Reform Judaism was the first (branch of a) major world religion to recognize and perform same-sex marriages.
On the other hand, Barry Cohen, I am deeply ashamed that you and I probably share an ethnic/religious background. I do not like the idea of being in the same species with you, much less both being Jews.
Perhaps some day Barry will learn the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia, but I am not holding my breath waiting.
I am also an Eagle Scout. It’s a shame all the good things they can teach a young man are overshadowed by this policy.
Actually, Wendy, I’m pretty ashamed of the fact that Reform calls itself Judaism, considering its left wing, non-Jewish social stances, and its rejection of that which is really the essence of Judaism. The Torah. Remember that? It’s what defines Judaism. “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” Leviticus 20:13.
Give me a break. There isn’t a single incidence of homosexuality in the Torah, other than the attempts in Sodom, from which we got the name of the practice of homosexual men called “sodomy”. If you want to hold your point of view, you’re entitled. It’s a free country. But it isn’t Jewish.
Wally Brown,
“It’s a shame all the good things they can teach a young man are overshadowed by this policy.”
Actually, since the Scouts profess positive values in general, one can assume that “this policy” is actually a good one. You may not think so, but that doesn’t mean you’re correct.
And, I think that it’s probably true that not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but, my guess is that all male to male pedophiles are homosexuals. By definition. Their preference is young innocent boys. My preference is attractive women. We all have something we prefer.
@Wally – I agree – would you like to sign on to this protest? Email me – [email protected].
Barry,
You preference is attractive women. So, by your definition, you will probably molest pretty young underage girls?
Kim is exactly right. No way should Barry be permitted to coach any girls sport. No girl should be in his house alone with him, no way would I will allow my young daughter (or my older daughter) to trick-or-treat at his house, he should probably be excluded from attending any father-daughter dance… As he wrote, “(his) preference is attractive women”, and we don’t want to give “someone with a preference for attractive women to “mess with (the girls) on camp-outs”.
Al, you’re right. I agree with you. Men shouldn’t be put in a position where they can use their power and authority to coerce young women, and are given secluded opportunities to do that. That’s the source of problems in many places, and you know where that happens. That’s why traditionally, when I was growing up, boys and girls were more separate than today. What has happened is that homosexual attraction has messed around with that, so that men who are attracted to men are put in secluded situations with men and boys on the assumption that they are not attracted. So, that’s why I think that homosexuals don’t belong in the Boy Scouts, or in the military living in barracks with men, etc. Similarly I disagree with co-ed bathrooms in colleges and stuff like that.
Being a father of daughters, I disagree on “father-daughter” dances, but I’m not sure what purpose they serve anyway if you have a good relationship with your daughter.
Barry, your attitude toward Judaism perplexes and saddens me. Do you take everything in the Torah as literally as the passage you have quoted? If so, how are those animal sacrifices going for you? Times change, civilizations evolve. My acceptance of homosexuality makes me no less a Jew. Although not a Reform Jew myself, I take great offense that you question the validity of their faith.
Does BSA also have a prohibition against gay scoutmasters and others that work with boy scouts? Wouldn’t it be inconsistent for them not to?
I’m not supporting that stance, mind you. But just as it’s highly likely there are boy scouts who are gay, so too is it likely that some boy scout leaders are too.
And it’s pretty well understood that where there are kids, there will be some adults looking to exploit the easy access to kids for negative purposes.
What’s ironic to me is that young kids and young adults today are least likely to be homophobic: the problem is with the adults.
Native Newtonian, your attitude toward Judaism perplexes and saddens me.
Do you take everything in the Torah as meaningless and subject to personal adjustment as you seem to? Is it anyone’s choice how to decide how to define something that already had a pretty clear definition?
As I told Wendy, you’re free to feel however you want. You’re not free, or shouldn’t be free to decide that something thousands of years old has a new definition simply because a bunch of misguided non-observant people decided that, and then criticize those people, like myself, who never decided that Judaism has a new, never-before-accepted meaning. Who gave you that right, especially where it creates a resentment towards traditional Jews? It’s a very sick and destructive attitude.
Call it something else, if you have a new philosophy of life.
So, Barry, I take it that you do still perform ritual sacrifice, as dictated in the Torah? Do you keep the laws of kashrut, as I do? I am as much a Jew as you (whatever that means) and have been taught by my faith that questioning and forever-learning is part and parcel of that faith. I have no resentment toward “traditional” Jews and believe that I practice “religiously” as one. I harbor no resentment toward Reform, either. We need all we can get, united in fellowship. But again, kind sir, I ask: do you follow all mitzvot? In today’s world, I cannot imagine you do. If you do not perform ritual sacrifice, you, too, are picking and choosing; if you are not Shomer Shabbos, you are picking and choosing. If you do not follow the laws of kashrut, you are picking and choosing……you get my point. Whether you wish to believe it or not, you, Wendy and I have more similarities than differences; I hope you can come to see that. Good Shabbos.
Mr Cohen, who are you to say that these beliefs are not Jewish? To the best of my knowledge, we (as I am a Jew by most definitions though likely not yours) lack a Pope or similar global, doctrinal governing body. As such, the most that you can legitimately say is that the forms of Judaism expressed in these postings are not those of traditional orthodoxy. It is fundamentally inaccurate to dismiss them as not Jewish.
@Dan – BSA prohibits gays in any capacity.
@mgwa,
So didn’t the armed forces.
Seems to me that a club for young people that bans gays would be a great organization for any kid hiding his homosexuality as well as parents in denial. If they keep up this appearance, they are effectively inviting what they say they are banning.
@Dan – I was just answering your question.
Susan,
“So, Barry, I take it that you do still perform ritual sacrifice, as dictated in the Torah?” This is a non-sequitur. As I assume you know, no accepted rabbis ever stopped the practice of ritual sacrifice. It was limited to the Temple in Jerusalem and 2000 years ago the Romans destroyed it. Perhaps when there is a third Temple, there will again be ritual sacrifice. I don’t know. It wasn’t eliminated on the grounds that it wasn’t modern or that society had “evolved”.
Second, it doesn’t matter what I personally do. What matters is how a religion is defined. A person may not practice anything in the religion, but he can still be a Jew if he became one in a legitimate way.
I was answering Wendy’s comment about being so proud of Reform for recognizing and performing same-sex marriages. It’s her choice to think such things are okay. It isn’t her choice to define it as Judaism, and to further make a ridiculous ad hominem statement like
“On the other hand, Barry Cohen, I am deeply ashamed that you and I probably share an ethnic/religious background. I do not like the idea of being in the same species with you, much less both being Jews.”
Honestly, I’d never say that about her. I disagree with her. But, please, this kind of derogatory comment is the weapon of those who support these things, and it has to end. I’ve said it many times here. I want someone to have a logical interaction on the issue, and not to simply attack those with whom they disagree. It’s a sign of weakness and insecurity in your position to resort to that.
Barry,
No matter the reason, you are filled with hate. How exhausting that must be. If it isn’t, well, that’s even more disturbing.
@Barry Cohen
I’m glad you left that ‘probably’ in there Barry. I wouldn’t want you to go out on a radical leftist limb there. It sounds like you’re still making up your mind on that one.
Jerry, I can’t think like a homosexual man. So, all I can say is that “probably” some are just attracted to only grown-up men, or at least understand that it’s wrong to go after innocent boys. It’s not that I’m making up MY mind. I don’t know their minds.
And as for small-minded people like Kim, who simply proves my point that their only method is to hurl insulting comments, I am not filled with hate. The hate comes from the GLBT crowd and their supporters. I simply have opinions. And the hate-mongers on the left don’t like my opinions and don’t have the mental capacity to discuss theirs versus mine in an intelligent way, or don’t have really defensible positions.
The Boy Scouts discussion seems long over
Apparently not everyone agreed with you.
It is amazing to me that all of these Eagle Scouts who want to protest the stance that the BSA has on gays have waited until they earned their rank. What. They did not know at 16 or 17 of the policy? It has been around for ever. I am also amazed that some of these people are only on this blog protesting to give themselves something to do, most have nothing to do with scouts and never would without this issue. If you don’t like the BSA don’t join but leave us the hell alone. At least my kids are doing something productive with their lives and are not out gang banging. Lets put this type of energy toward the national debt, murders etc.