As we rest from the reality show of V14 pre-election vitriol and humor, I’d like to ask all of us who write on this blog and also those who comment frequently to consider exactly what we are trying to accomplish here. Are we out to modify, impress, discuss our ideal political positions and visions, or banter interminably with vigor and rigor in the deluded belief that we will change anyone’s opinion?
I, for one, look to Village 14 to see what the positions are that are being articulated by the left-leaning posses who reside herein. I notice that the right-leaning groups seldom show their faces here, possibly for fear that V14 will get too many clicks in its bid to justify its “teachings.” One may be led to BBC for an aerial view at reporting, since the Fox and CNN and the WSJ and NYT are all political tags and rags. Certainly, the Globe gives off a clear odor of bias. And where is a reporter-staffed local Tab of note? We are on our own and reliant on V14 and other social platforms that sway without any journalistic honesty.
Wouldn’t it be grand if we could remove the bite from our remarks and try actual reasoned debate? Whether you are mourning or celebrating the election results from yesterday, do you honestly think Newton will fade into the night as a caring community? Maybe what you care about is not exactly what your neighbor cares about. But maybe we can help each other by listening more closely, without judgment, to what each is saying.
But, Please God, never let the creative humor of Jerry Reilly or his ilk be quieted. We need them to relieve the stress of tongue-biting while we restrain ourselves as we try to reason like adults.
Speaking of leprechauns, Happy St. Patrick’s Day!
Sallee:
“I notice that the right-leaning groups seldom show their faces here, possibly for fear that V14 will get too many clicks in its bid to justify its “teachings.” One may be led to BBC for an aerial view at reporting, since the Fox and CNN and the WSJ and NYT are all political tags and rags. Certainly, the Globe gives off a clear odor of bias. And where is a reporter-staffed local Tab of note? We are on our own and reliant on V14 and other social platforms that sway without any journalistic honesty.”
If you want a true day to conjure, maybe starting out this way isn’t the best path. The folks that set the threads on Village14 are certainly are on the liberal side, but boy, are the posts now trending far more conservative. To say that right leaning groups seldom show their faces here ignores every election for the past few years, the sudden influx of new anonymous posters, the folks who post under fake names (some of whom were outed as conservatives if you remember), and it also ignores Matt Lai, Paul Green, Jeffrey P., Claire, Anatoly, Jim Cote, Bruce Wang, joe rizza, Emily Norton, Amy S., Bugek, Peter Karg, Tony Gentile, and that is just in the last few days. I realize some of those may not identify as “conservative” , but I take your comment to be folks who don’t agree with poster formally known as Greg (now mostly gone) and Sean, among other clearly left leaning folks. And frankly those folks above, with the exception of the threads from Sean, really do drive the conversation here, especially during these past few election seasons.
I’d welcome more voices that can post threads here from the right side. Let’s work on that. But I’m also a little tired of the trope that this is basically an echo chamber for Sean’s side of the equation. The more conservative side of Newton politics shows up quite frequently, if not in a majority fashion, in the posts. Certainly in this election.
If you are talking the Tom Mountain side of the political equation, yep, those folks aren’t around much. But they also aren’t around much in Newton either.
I’d love to have this discussion Sallee, and you completely had me involved with the rest of your post, but this paragraph just doesn’t fit the facts in my view.
@Fig, I disagree. The posts are mostly left-leaning. Those to the right of those left leaners (maybe independent and/or centrist) don’t normally show up or comment until a few weeks before an election. The thing that interested me about this election was how many showed up, with the correct grammar and diction and spelling and made compelling, non-hysterical arguments for each side. I won’t argue ad hominem, but It was surprising to me that some original posters seemed almost hysterical at the thought of disagreement with their hypotheses and lost their debate footing. I won’t elaborate because I don’t want to indulge in anything that smacks of a personal attack.
Anyway, why do you think we are here? I, personally, crave information more than opinion. Information on what issues are important to posters and commenters and their perception on how best to achieve what they deem important.
@Fig
1. The agenda of V14 is set by those that sets the thread, that is an extremely significant point. That sets the tone for the in-going perspective and the dissenting view on thread after thread. Additionally, the permissiveness of behavior like Sean’s, beating a dead horse on issues simply to make his own point more prominent, unquestionably detracts from the openness of the site.
If V14 want to be a fully open forum, diversify those voices at the top.
2. I’d take issue with your characterization of left vs right-learning. Sean, thinks of himself as left leaning, but ignored the cause of diverse representation of the City Council because he prioritized a different issue. I think that more left-learning members of the Democratic party, in 2021, seeing the racial composition of the Council, along with the existing positions on housing/zoning/development, would unquestionably have prioritized a Black member on the council over another voice for less restrictive zoning/development. You may not agree, but at minimum it is not clear one way or the other, and your characterization of left leaning and mischaracterizing the views of others as conservative, e.g. Emily Norton, is not correct.
Fignewtonville,
If you live in a world where “Emily Norton” is considered conservative…. then i am:
1. Speechless
2. I would be scared to live in that world, i would assume many others would too
I don’t think NIMBYism vs YIMBYism falls along party lines at all. Look at San Francisco, considered to be one of the most progressive cities in the country, struggling with serious problems due to NIMBYs. Anecdotally, many of the Bernie-style progressives I know are NIMBYs. I’m a YIMBY and I’m a traditional Obama/Hillary/Biden (with a dash of Liz Warren and Ayanna Pressley) style Democrat.
I know that these are examples where it’s really Democrat vs. Democrat, but it’s appropriate given the political demographics both of San Francisco and Greater Boston.
But I don’t think being pro or anti-dev is a litmus test in either direction.
Let’s take these one at a time starting from Bugek going up, because I think this debate is important to the future of the forum.
1) Bugek: I don’t consider Emily Norton conservative on environmental issues of course, but when it comes to development issues in Newton, I generally consider there to be two “sides”, and I think Emily is one of the leading voices of the RightSize/NVA type side. I mean nothing negative about saying that, I’d just view her as a leading voice in that movement. I’d view Sean as a leading voice on the reform zoning side, along with some of the more liberal sides of the council (Bill H. and quite a few others). There are lots of folks between those. So I don’t mean conservative as if it is a republican, just on certain issues.
2) Alec: I agree, the folks that set the threads make a big difference. It would be great to get more voices setting the threads. And honestly, I don’t agree with the way they are set some of the time. I’d prefer the topics be more general, with the posts being more specific. For instance, I’d rather Sean say “Let’s talk about single family zoning” and then post his position not in the thread lead but as an individual post. And I’d love folks like Jeffrey P to become someone who posts threads. I will note that folks that post threads by policy can’t be anonymous, or else I’d post threads (and I’d be good at it! 😉 ) So we agree on the need for more thread posters in general, and more from the more “conservative’ side. And clearly the labels here are getting folks confused, so lets be honest here too: When it comes to local politics, democrat and republican, liberal and conservative don’t quite do it. We need folks with different viewpoints, and folks who are willing to articulate those viewpoints with facts and lack of bomb throwing.
Jerry and Greg did institute the guest posting feature, which is a good change. But it gives a fair amount of power to Jerry to dictate who gets to guest post. Jerry, as much as a tease him, seems to me to be a good person to do that. But clearly when Matt Lai wanted to guest post, Jerry used his discretion and didn’t post the thread. I trust Jerry to be the right gatekeeper, but perhaps two folks should be deciding when not to post a guest post.
Even on Facebook, there are moderators so discussions don’t get out of hand. Sometimes those moderators will make decisions folks don’t like. What it does reinforce for me is that moderators who can put down threads without that type of gatekeeper should be folks like you and Jerry and others, who can be trusted to not abuse the privilege. Perhaps we can have a “guest moderator” to test folks out, and make sure they are doing it fairly.
3) Sallee, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I suppose many of the folks are centrist that I listed, but most of those post regularly, and especially when anything political comes to pass. And that is when the forum gets heated, and when most folks pay attention. As for the original posters seeming almost hysterical when these folks came on the scene, I think we are going to have to disagree on that one as well (although I’d term that last one a bit of an attack, but that’s ok).
As for why we are here? I’m here for discussion with folks of different viewpoints. In a respectful manner. I believe in calling out folks who lie or who misstate facts, but I try to do that respectfully as much as I can. I like hearing and debating the political sides of arguments, especially around elections and major city votes. I doubt I’m changing minds, but I think the debate is important and it can certainly change policy.
I’m also here for my village. I post about Newtonville, Cabot, Day, North. I post about the village improvements. And I post about Washington Street. On those issues, debating here DOES make a difference. City folks read the forum, and I know some changes were made in Newtonville based on comments and follow-up with the city. That’s a net positive.
And I’m here for info. Jerry’s posts are a real service. The posts about events too. CPA things. Webster Woods. When we aren’t having an election, that’s the entire forum. And we also shrink down a bunch too.
Ok, long enough post for me. Cheers, Figgy.
And since no one will read my long post, I just got an email from the NPS that all students will be full in-person in the fall. Considering the rumors on that, I’ll take that as a conjuring of happiness right there!
Huzzah! Spring has sprung.
@fignewtonville – Just to be clear on the recent post Matt Lai sent to me, I did not turn him down. He sent me his post, I sent him back comments. I made it clear that I wasn’t turning him down. He said “let me think about your comments” and then decided to post it elsewhere.
What no doubt was very annoying to him though was that the comments I made were that I thought his post was likely to be seen by some as being inflammatory and would like “attract more heat then light”. Soon thereafter, Sean posted his contribution which was more inflammatory by a margin.
I did indeed turn down a post from Matt down about a week ago but that was for two very specific reasons.
1. We were already in the midst of collecting closing statements from all the candidates as Guest Posts for the final days before the election. What he sent me was a statement from Tarik Lucas’s campaign. Throwing an additional post from one campaign in with the campaign Guest Posts would have been unfair to the other candidates.
2. The campaign statement he had sent was about the issue surrounding an email from one of his supporters. We had purposely not run a story about that email in the first place, so it didnt make sense to run Tarik Lucas’s response to it.
Also worth knowing – we did also turn down a few requests from other campaigns for specific Guest posts towards the end of the campaign.
@Jerry – I think the root of the issue comes down to inconsistency in how the rules are defined for election season. I recall there being a standing rule that elected officials and candidates loose their posting privileges to prevent them from self-advertising. That part is good but kind of becomes irrelevant when you have other posters playing clear favorites in how they present articles (compare your posts on Save Nonantum to Sean’s as exhibit A). I think Chuck had the right approach in that he mainly limited his pitches to the comments section rather than articles.
Ultimately the mods set the tone of the discussion by virtue of controlling the pulpit, and this cycle in particular there was a very noticeable difference in the tone between content that you and Gail posted compared to others. That’s something that people are going to pick up on quickly and throws gas on what’s already going to be contentious discussion.
@Patrick Butera – Thanks for the feedback. Which posts of mine did you see as problematic?
@Jerry – Your posts were good, probably should have clarified Sean’s were the ones that were problematic. To the example specifically your post on the first Save Nonantum ad struck a balance of making your thoughts on it clear while leaving the overall discussion up in the air while Sean’s later post didn’t add any new information and basically just served as an attack on Tarik. It would have been more appropriate as a comment on your original thread (which was already a brawl in the comments) rather than a new post. In general I think your approach in posting was on point in terms of keeping the articles themselves factual and letting the comments play out opinion.
Hey. Lighten up. All Sallee asked was to play nice.
Thanks, W. Mahegan, but I was asking more than that. I want us to reflect on what V14 is all about. I think the history is that Gail and Greg, two journalists, started it when they left the Tab. That makes me think they had the tools to make it informative, interactive and educational. Today it is an opinion piece. Sure, I like that I can air my thoughts here, too, but I think it has strayed from its honest journalistic roots. I want us all to think about what we really want to read and comment upon for the sake of keeping civility and reasoned discourse in the mix. In the old days, pols would argue in the chambers and then go out for a drink together. Do we do any of that, even figuratively, today?
@Sallee Lipshutz – It was actually Greg (journalist) and Sean (non-journalist) who started Village14. Gail didn’t join the party until sometime later,
Your larger points and question still hold though.
The basic premise that Pro-builds are on the left and Preservationists are on the right is wrong from the start. Many preservationists are democratic socialists and were Bernie supporters in the last election, and last I looked, are considered far left in this world. Most are Biden/Hillary supporters and are considered progressive left. The Republicans who align with Preservationists generally do so for other reasons such as property rights. Preservationists are not “anti-housing” as characterized by one of the losing candidates in this most recent election. They are for doing the math and making informed decisions on growth in our city. With the election of Lucas and Oliver, it now seems that the rest of the city is finally getting and responding to that message.
I also wanted to add that I feel like the tone has improved on V14 since Greg’s departure. Chuck also isn’t posting as much. Those are the two voices that I found that lend to a bad online environment. The epitome of the “well, actually” white male types.
I do think Sean’s online behavior can be pretty toxic, especially when he posts about the same topic over and over.
But with Jerry and Gail being the primary posters, I think V14 is overall a better place.
Thanks, Jerry, for the V14 history lesson. Well, if Sean is one of the two remaining birth fathers at V14, perhaps he should let us know what his motives are and what he would like to accomplish in the future on this board. That might make its future clearer. I hope he will answer either here or in his own new thread, giving all of us (and Sean) the benefit of his introspection.
Sallee, Sean helped start Village 14 with Greg but that doesn’t mean he has any more say in the site’s objectives than any other bloggers. We all have the same number of stock options.
Shhh don’t discourage Sean. He is us right wing Bernie Bros’ MVP. The more he posts, the more he draws support to our side.
Village 14 followed on after the end of the Newton Tab Blog (as distinct from the Newton Tab) and was not a whole lot different in tone & issue content from V14. Like V14, the Tab Blog was not primarily a news source, although sometimes news was reported there. Like happens here.
I recall it getting as heated there as here. I remember moderators pulling the plug on some posts, just like here.
@Nathan, your memories of the Tab blog are mostly accurate. Greg, who played a key role in the Tab blog, started Village 14 when he left Gatehouse. I followed a few months later but the Tab blog stuck around until it faded away a couple of years later. It was a blog but it also linked to Tab stories as soon as they were posted. Readers came to the Tab blog for news rather than wickedlocalnewton.com, the Tab’s news site. I actually think things got more heated there than they do on Village 14.
A big difference was only GateHouse employees could start threads on the Tab blog.
Ah yes, now I remember that more accurate history, Gail. It made me recall how I would periodically check the Tab Blog as it lost steam, while V14 was ramping up.
Sallee,
I don’t think Greg or Sean (or Gail) ever claimed that V14 was a platform for journalism. Even though a few of the volunteer contributors may have the creds, none of them have the time or resources required to properly cover a beat or even a story. We’ve all mourned the loss of local journalism (though Gail has been actively working to fix that and train the next generation!)
When I was invited to participate as a contributor, I was told to share any event or issue in Newton that I knew about to help fill the void. At first, I think V14 posts tended to be terse, sometimes followed by an open question, and opinions would follow in the comments, a bit more in the style of Universal Hub. Personally, I still prefer that style. That doesn’t make those who respectfully post their own sometimes lengthy opinions deserving of ridicule, though.
And MMQC… regarding toxicity… just wow. I’ve got plenty I could say about your own comment, but as a “white male” I guess I’m not allowed to.
Agreed with @Bugek; if I’m a conservative, even I’m afraid of what being left wing entails. Also – can I also still be a populist? (Pick a side, people! This whiplash is exhausting)
@MMQC,
I am in complete agreement with regard to the toxic elements that rise and fall here. It is rather regrettable that issues – once, twice, thrice dissected, beaten and pulverized, are then fodder for Sean to resurrect from the gutter for a further whipping. Tedious, so tedious.
@Sean – you can do better. We all know that.
Yes, Emily. You are a liberal populist! I stick by what I said before. Being populist is not a bad thing. This is one of the differences between at-large councilors and ward elected councilors. Ward elected councilors tend to be more populist.
@Jeffrey P: I took no offense. It may even be accurate, depending on how one defines populism. I do have a skepticism of moneyed interests engaging in our government.
Sorry, Adam, you’re right – I forgot to list you when discussing toxic white men on this blog! Mea culpa. You don’t participate enough to remain on my radar.
In my original comment, my point was that many of the most prominent folks supporting Tarik and John posted here in great numbers. Of course not all of those folks are “conservative” because the label is really meaningless for local politics, and I said that above. But it is certainly true that this forum attracted a very vocal group of folks supporting one side of the election that often claims it doesn’t have enough of a voice on this forum, and that that group of folks dominated much of the posts over the past few months. That’s a fine thing, it is an open forum, but if you are looking for changes, the key I think is attracting the most appropriate of those voices to become moderators. Allow some more folks to set the agenda, and ask the folks currently setting the agenda to include more opinion in the comments, and less in the initial posts.
A few other thoughts to conjure:
1) I liked the general threads to talk about anything. I always thought that having those be suggestions for additional threads that Jerry or a moderator could promote to a full thread would be a good idea.
2) I think having a weekly thread with the following links would be great: (a) Mayor’s newsletter, (b)Area Council agendas, (c) Amy S. amazing newsletter about city hall happenings, and (d)invitation to post about community happenings.
3) I’d offer each area council a designated person who can post threads about area council business. Ideally this would be shut off around election time.
4) I’d pull from some of the facebook and listservs the most interesting topics (And credit the source). You could easily do a “best of the web”
Honestly, this is all run by volunteers, which is something that most folks forget, myself included. And any public forum is going to enrage you some of the time, since it is designed to be a place where folks can disagree with you! If a Sean post makes you mad, you can always ignore it. Same thing with the Sallee post above. Or you can confront and say your opinion back. The alternative is the echo chambers that exist in closed off facebook forums and listservs. I’m sure those are informative for the side putting them up, but they are also opinion reinforcing and boring. Those aren’t calm ponds of discourse, they are frozen pools. Nothing ever changes. Give me something like this any day of the week.
If you are part of a listserv or on facebook, and you post an opinion and everyone agrees with you, either you are undeniably brilliant or you are basically just talking to yourself. Give me a real conversation any day of the week.
So that’s my conjure. Real debate, real conversation, more voices as moderators, a few tweaks about information posts.