Some disrespectful comments on another Village 14 post prompted advice from Jerry Reilly to the writer that if he toned things down he might be more persuasive and effective. Jerry was right on target, but his thoughts didn’t get to another aspect of the problem, that such harsh comments erode the effectiveness of this platform in helping to define and refine public debate on issues.
I have heard, more often than I care to say, from current and former elected officials that they don’t read these pages. Today, this was brought home to me with clarity. In response to an email I sent citing one of our Village 14 discussions, a City Councilor wrote the following
“I appreciate you drawing my attention to the Village 14 thread, but in my experience that blog does not often reflect Newton’s finest thinking and collaboration in our community for the greater good. I consider v14 representative of a fraction of the city and often unnecessarily polarizing.”
Where does that leave us? Is this forum simply a chance for gabbing and jousting among a small group, or is our hope to have a meaningful impact on the large and small issues facing our city? Are we just listening to the sound of our own voice(s)? What are we actually learning from one another? How do our interactions improve the quality of discourse on City matters?
I wrote a blog for nine years, with thousand of entries, and there were extremely few times that commenters were disrespectful of me or others who had offered thoughts. And I was dealing with some pretty divisive issues in the health care world. As a result, the blog was widely read by state and federal public officials, as well as by thousands of participants in the medical world. I personally learned a lot from my correspondents, and they did from one another.
The design of Village 14 is different in several respects from that blog, but there is no reason why it can’t rise to the same level of effectiveness. Indeed, given the dearth of news coverage in Newton, such a forum is necessary. We should not have to rely on Jerry and the other “owners,” though, to supervise what gets printed to maintain community standards. Each participant can hold themselves accountable to a standard of thoughtfulness and excellence and manners. If and when that happens on a consistent basis, this forum can be of tremendous value to the community.
@Paul – it would help a lot if the owners could set such a tone. Unfortunately, a couple of them range from unnecessarily snarky to downright aggressive in their posts. Unsurprisingly, this stokes the fires and leads to replies ranging from defensive to even nastier.
I still read posts here because it’s become the only source for certain information, but am sad that it’s not a more civil and respectful forum.
My observations are that sometimes the blogger finds a need to defend their position, which is understandable and often productive. Where it starts to break down is when either the blogger or the commenter take a difference of opinion personally. Whether you like our president or don’t, one of the primary reasons he’s there is because we have lost our ability as a society to openly discuss and debate issues without a breakdown of civility. It divided our country, and he capitalized on it. None of us should be focused on trying to make people agree with our viewpoints, but rather develop a deeper understanding of theirs. Only through this approach can we maintain civil discourse and ultimately move the needle when it comes to finding common ground. Disagree without being disagreeable. – RBG
Many people on V14 post high-quality content–some use their real names and some do not. Low quality, acrimonious content is disproportionately posted by people who do not use their real names.
I understand why some people might not like to reveal their real names.
Here is how I would deal with the problem. Let people who reveal their names vote on content from those who do not reveal their names–not on whether they agree, rather whether the content promotes discourse. Those whose content is voted poorly should be kicked off V14 unless they agree to use their real name.
I agree with @Meredith. I’m hear to read up on local issues. I post anonymously to give my perspective and give insight to areas where I have a closer view (Highlands, kids in school). Even though I post anonymously I try to do so in the same respectful manner as I would if I were not anonymous. The anonymity allows me to reveal things that I might not otherwise reveal. I would not post with my real name as people get pretty aggressive on these online forums. At this point I feel like that tone in our city, country has the potential to spill over into real life. Just read Newton Nextdoor.
That said there are times that I want to walk away from this blog. I’m sad that Mike Striar recently walked away . Though I didn’t always agree with his viewpoints. I did appreciate hearing his perspective. Also where has Figgy gone?
In my opinion anonymous posts should be eliminated. I think that would raise the bar.
Dr. Levy, this forum is nothing like your former effort except to the extent that both can be labeled “blogs.” The topics covered here have the potential to deeply affect the lives and livelihoods of everyone in Newton; e.g., the nature of development, how we can and cannot behave in public, what can and cannot be sold in places of business, etc. All I can say is thank goodness that V14 is generally ignored by the our city’s leaders. It should be.
There are a number of confounding issues that make V14 precisely and inherently the swamp your friends find it to be:
* Opinions are not facts and uninformed opinions make for bad dialogue
* Not all risks are equally likely or equally costly
* Too many people do not know that they do not know and do not care that they do not know what they do not know
The result is an all-too-frequent tendency for people on this blog to think nothing of advocating policy choices which would impose their values, aesthetics, etc. on their fellow citizens in ways which will will negatively impact the others’ ways of life with limited (if any) substantive societal good resulting.
Until this changes, which seems unlikely, V14 will continue to be a sideshow.
What Elmo said. (Though I wish he/she)would use their real name, because anonymity always was and is the original sin of internet discourse).
Paul:
* What does “effectiveness” mean and to what do you aspire it to mean for this for Village14?
* What is the objective function Village14 is seeking to optimize?
* What metrics can be used to detect the degree to which Village14 is “successful” against the stated objective?
* Where are those answers clearly put to, understood by, and at least tacitly accepted by those participating here non-passively?
To this observer, Village14 appears intent on being a creature of the town green — a many-on-many communication tool for the demos. To that extent, participants’ sharply put perspectives and harsh language are but the lingua franca of tribal communications. Without a structured notion of “better” and “worse”, in the sense of moving closer to or further away from optimizing the objective function, an commonly viewed sense of “goodness” is lacking, and so the autonomously applied feedback loop is missing its essential signal.
Officer Krupke certainly knew that rumbles are neither about maximizing a P&L nor are they intellectual exercises in the pursuit of progress.
Informational posts are great, very useful…
Where it goes downhill is when the owners of this blog use it to set an agenda. Perhaps agenda opinion type posts should be clearly labelled AND only allow non anonymous comments to those posts only.
The agenda posts have become quite frequently and in a sense gives the impression the owners are weaponizing this blog to further their agenda. Obviously, they have every right to do so…
Mary, thanks for the those questions. Undoubtedly, Village 14 already has value as a bulletin board, posting interesting events and activities for us to learn about. That’s easy and generates no controversy and is fun and entertaining. No harm in that. Indeed, it is a very good aspect of this site.
What I would hope for, beyond that function, is that Village 14 would also be viewed by our elected and appointed officials as a site that could help them understand a variety of points of views and/or bring to bear useful information on questions of public policy. It is on this front that we could be better, if the comments I hear from our city officials are any indication. I don’t think they mind that people will express personal agendas, but what they report to me is that they find the quality of the back-and-forth to be uneven at best, and more often tiresome and unhelpful.
If Elmo is correct that our main purpose is to spout off and, for the better, be ignored by our public officials, that suggests that we are just involved in a narcissistic exercise. While that can be personally satisfying in some circumstances (e.g., blowing off steam), I’d hope that, collectively, we can offer something better.
On the anonymity issue, as NHMom notes, there is no inherent reason why choosing to keep your name private must lead to bad manners. And there are some genuine reasons that some people must or might choose to be anonymous. In any event, I also see bad manners from some of those who choose to show their names.
Paul:
Then, as a publisher, I wonder if a design improvement might serve you well.
In classic single-speaker blog fashion, all posts on Village14 are offered equal footing, as a stream of consciousness. To the over-abundance of psychiatrists dwelling in Newton, the chronology is surely fascinating. But that is not what you mean, here.
So how about adding a hint of structure … e.g., “Current Events”, “Issues of the Day”, “Working on Newton’s Future” … or something that better signals your purpose and expectations for participants.
I think the Midas Rule applies, and so would discount any complaints of arbitrariness raise in response to such a partitioning. And please consider that overtime, a single subject might waterfall from one category to a next, or even multi-appear contemporaneously though with different emphasis.
Paul,
It actually heartens me to hear that Village 14 in its current state is largely ignored by Newton officials and policymakers, because it gives me hope that at some point someone with influence over this site will see the light and make the changes necessary for it to become a productive civic commons.
Village 14 lacks consequence as a public forum not because of a lack of civility, or because every argument isn’t given equal weight no matter how unsupported by facts it is or what the underlying agenda is of the person making it.
Village 14 is discounted because it is a haven for cranks, including many anonymous ones, who are more interested in trolling, baiting well-intentioned users into unproductive arguments, and hearing themselves talk — rather than in the sometimes difficult and uncomfortable but responsible discourse that aims toward creating public good.
If Village 14 wants to become a true civic commons for Newton, it should consider:
* Doing away with anonymity and making people take personal responsibility for their arguments (that puts a dent in the civility issue right there).
* Filtering participation based not on the tenor of the posters’ words, but the veracity of the underlying facts and the soundness of the logic behind their arguments. (In other words, fact check, and yes, this takes discernment.)
* And as the above poster Mary P. eloquently (yet again, anonymously, sigh) put it, defining what Village 14’s underlying values and goals are other than being a mere pipeline for words.
And yes, this does go against the well-established trend of how internet comments and forums generally work, which some people are attached to, but it is also true that anonymous comments have done far more to create troll culture and to poison public discourse than they have to make a positive contribution. Based on the overwhelming evidence of the damage that anonymous comments have done, why people keep futilely pleading for civility on anonymous online forums is beyond me.
Simply put: Village 14 can either be a haven for cranks, trolls, and insincere arguments or a true civic commons. It can’t be both.
And if it’s being ignored by the policy and political community, perhaps it’s time to try something new or fold up the tent.
For those asserting that anonymous and/or pseudonymous (there is a difference) commenters are what’s ruining civility in this forum – do you have any hard evidence/numbers to back that up? Some of us who’ve been around for awhile probably see it a bit differently…
The posted reason for the creation of Village14 is “a forum for discussing all things Newton” – not “a forum for influencing elected officials and policy makers who read it”.
It’s not an issue unique to V14, I’ve rarely seen an online forum/discussion involving politics that doesn’t devolve into an echo chamber to a degree along with it’s share of trolling. For what it’s worth I would say V14 is still on the better side of forums/sites I frequent in terms of overall tone. Paul with your blog I would guess that the readership skewed more towards medical professionals and others in the field, so it’s a bit different in that the discussions have a base level of understanding that can’t be assumed on V14.
It’s part of the nature of online forums that people are going to be more flippant than they would in a personal setting, not convinced that a real name requirement would help significantly given comment history. Doesn’t seem like name is a barrier in terms of people holding back. It was interesting to note at the last get together last year that putting people in the same room who would normally be at each other’s throats here were joking around without a problem.
What does exasperate the problem on V14 specifically is how the topics (pre-COVID) tended to both skew towards the most contentious issue (development) and also tended be very much slanted towards the pro-development mindset. That topic alone is going to be especially contentious without throwing additional gas on the fire as some of the threads did. There’s also the impression of some selectivity in when and how rules are enforced – as mentioned before compared to other discussion forums I’d say V14 overall is fairly tame. There have been a few times I’ve seen threads closed or removed where I would have let things play out.
Also worth noting that V14 is a self-selecting population – similar to how people point out public meetings tend to be dominated by older people who have the time and knowledge to attend V14 is also a specific cross-section of people who know the forum exists and care enough to participate. It’s a useful source for local events and discussion but I’d take it with a grain of salt to try and extrapolate into an overall pulse of what people are thinking. Would also be hesitant to say V14 being taken seriously by our local councilors should be a critical factor of the site’s success.
Re Tricia: The posted reason for the creation of Village14 is “a forum for discussing all things Newton” – not “a forum for influencing elected officials and policy makers who read it”.
And Patrick: Would also be hesitant to say V14 being taken seriously by our local councilors should be a critical factor of the site’s success.
Well, ok. Perhaps my hopes are too high if that’s the way most people view it. I just figured that everybody’s time and effort could be useful beyond back-and-forth comments.
@Paul, I rarely comment on V14 because I am an Independent (politically moderate with no party affiliation) and the bloggers who control this blog are fairly uniform in their thinking (politically far left-leaning ideology) and often delete or censor comments which they disagree with. If such were not the case, perhaps a broader range of Newton’s residents would engage in discussion here.
With respect to the following section of your post, I’d like to point something out.
You wrote: “In response to an email I sent citing one of our Village 14 discussions, a City Councilor wrote the following
‘I appreciate you drawing my attention to the Village 14 thread, but in my experience that blog does not often reflect Newton’s finest thinking and collaboration in our community for the greater good. I consider v14 representative of a fraction of the city and often unnecessarily polarizing.’”
I think that any City Councilor who knows that we have no formal system for broadly polling Newton’s residents, and who refuses to at least skim the comments on the V14 blog, is a BIGGER part of the problem of incivility and/or one-sided thinking in Newton than the V14 commenters who write disrespectful comments. Phrases such as “finest thinking” and “collaboration in our community for the greater good” are generally reflective of the Democratic far-left viewpoint which has dominated Newton’s politics and leadership in recent years.
This far-left group, which dominates our City Council, believes that there is only one “right” way to think and live, which they refer to as the “Progressive” way. Unlike two former City Councilors who did not get reelected in the last election (one of whom comments on V14), the far-left Councilors do not think through the issues, but rather promote and implement an ideology which is based on belief, not science, data or reason. And anyone who disagrees with them is labeled a “bigot” of one form or another and summarily dismissed and ignored.
If the City Councilors were smart, they would read through this blog to get a sense of what residents they don’t know are thinking and saying about issues facing the City. Doing so is part of representing your constituents, a concept which has also been lost to the idea that constituents aren’t smart enough to know what’s best for them, so “Progressives” will have to take over and pass laws forcing all of their constituents into “the right way to live” behaviors. By NOT READING the V14 blog, this group convinces themselves that the majority of Newton’s citizens are far-left Liberals, as they themselves are (I have many Newton neighbors who do not share those views). Then, they introduce and vote on issues according to their own views, not what constitutes either a broad consensus among Newton’s residents or at least a compromise between two positions. What makes them think that such an approach conforms to the notion of a “collaboration in our community for the greater good?”
As to your question: “How do our interactions improve the quality of discourse on City matters?
My answer to this is: at present our interactions on V14 do not consistently improve the quality of discourse on City matters. To achieve better quality discourse here there should be less censorship, even if it results in a small minority of commenters being rude and disrespectful. Also, we should bring back the thumbs up voting system to allow readers to up-vote comments they agree with. Comment voting systems are not ideal, but they give readers some idea where there may be agreement or support for positions being proposed.
The real question is: “Why can’t we tolerate a few rude comments from uninformed or angry/worried/frightened commenters?” Possibly because far-left Liberals believe in silencing dissenting views in the guise of “calling out” “hate speech” or what they perceive as political incorrectness. They seem oblivious to the fact that this stance reflects only one viewpoint and that there are other ways to look at the same problems. Perhaps if participants could accept the reality of a diversity of viewpoints, we could debate one another in a civil manner.
In short, to improve the discourse on this blog, and to make the discussions more useful for moving our City in a positive direction (financially as well as in terms of a good quality of life for all residents) the V14 bloggers need to stop censoring people’s comments. It will suffice to caution rude people for personal attacks or uncouth language, as Jerry does, but deleting other people’s thoughts as “off topic” or “over-the-top” is unfair and divisive — and most importantly, it squelches brainstorming, which permitted unchecked, might yield some interesting ideas and solutions.
Having formerly been a columnist for the Tab, I have discovered that many, perhaps most of our elected representatives and public officials do read Village 14 or at least skim it. When I first joined up, I lamented that my readership, which had often extended across the Commonwealth because Wicked Local and its predecessors outsourced some pieces, would diminish on Village 14. Greg disagreed, noting the large number of visitors to the site. Even city and area councilors who complain to me about the Village 14’s “pro-business/pro-development bias” occasionally take a gander. Though most of us possess strongly held views, none of us holds a monopoly on truth. Therefore, it’s wise at least to hear from those who disagree.
Admittedly, it’s harder for me to maintain equanimity when views that seem unjust or even irrational emanate from those in power. My blood pressure rises when I’m exposed to the views of birthers, of climate change deniers, of those who scapegoat undocumented immigrants, and of ultra-nationalists and jingoists in any country, be it the U.S.A., Russia, Israel, or Hungary. I am afraid of ultra-orthodoxy, be it political or religious. Even so, it’s best to wait before reacting.
Each judged by their own words.
Words carefully, deliberately chosen.
Words worth standing behind.
Words borne of reason and experience,
vision and knowledge.
Words said clearly,
with respect, empathy, and humility.
Words said, but equally, words heard.
Words understood.
Words debated, questioned, challenged.
Words evolved.
Our challenge:
Do our words stand together,
or do they only stand alone?
@Tricia
There are literally scores of studies backing that up, do a Google search yourself if you’re such a skeptic of the obvious. I’ll wait.
@Ralph – I’m talking specifically about commenting on V14, not the internet in general. So I guess now I’ll wait? (Now, I wasn’t planning on a snarky closing, but there it is. See how what you throw out into the void comes back at you?)
Paul – I believe you are extrapolating too much from one Councilor’s comment. The Councilor knew immediately what V14 was.
One of the ways to undermine something is to belittle it. Classic extreme example being soldiers referring to the enemy with non-human names because it’s easier to kill someone you don’t see as human.
I also think Mary has a point with this: “all posts on Village14 are offered equal footing” V14 lost something removing the thumbs up and down. Likes and dislikes help sort good comments from not-so-good comments.
As for V14 posters being a self-selecting group. So are voters in Newton. I’d be willing to bet V14 posters have a higher than average voting participation rate.
@Tricia
You mean have there been any published studies on the effects of anonymous comments specifically on Village 14? On second thought you probably shouldn’t wait around for that. And this is exactly what I mean about pointless, unproductive conversations with anonymous users.
But by all means, keep V14 going the way its been going. The shark has been jumped anyway.
+1 on Lucia’s comment. I’m sure that said councilor is sitting back and having quite a big chuckle over this exaggerated exercise in self-awareness.
I note that V14 has so far avoided any serious discussion about what a mess this city is going to be in for the foreseeable future – the furloughed and soon to be laid-off employees in probably every department, the permanently shuttered storefronts, the crash in the real estate market and its unprecedented impact on assessments and city revenue, the long-term aversion to any kind of speculative development, the probable closure of schools and other public facilities, the permanent cuts to city services, etc.
Over here in Needham I can tell you that we are going to be in one hell of a mess and I suspect that any elected leader with any sense is already planning his or her retirement to Fort Myers. By the end of the year, between TripAdvisor, PTC, and a few neighboring buildings we could easily end up with a million square feet of unused office space and an empty eight-story parking garage to boot (oh and also an empty Coca-Cola plant).
Meanwhile the town is on the hook for a $70 million tax increase from late-2018 because, instead of fixing up a couple of leaking and disintegrating schools, we were bamboozled into approving the overpriced and wildly over-dimensioned construction of two new fire stations and a police station (with subterranean firing range!).
Alas it seems like only a few months ago when a proposed transit-oriented development on a parcel completely surrounded by railroad tracks was shot down by the Select Board because (we were told) we mustn’t approve any new projects before we leveraged the luxury of waiting as long as was necessary to determine how our schools, public services, and infrastructure would absorb the construction of new housing in the Industrial Center and along Greendale Ave. Whoops! That luxury of waiting, and the countless other luxuries of suburban Boston governance that were predicated on the ballooning real estate market, have now disappeared into thin air.
Should be an interesting ride for both Needham and Newton.
Thanks, Lucia. If it had only been that one comment, I’d probably not have raised the issue. But there may be some merit in your point (and that of Ubiety) that some officials might not prefer that there were discussions on some issues. I’ve certainly had that experience with some elected people, who won’t even respond to less public opinions, i.e., on email or in person.
Bob, re: “Even so, it’s best to wait before reacting.” Agree! Especially when tired, hungry, or angry.
Michael, there’s little discussion about what will happen “after” because no one has any idea. We can talk all we want, but everything we would consider is completely beyond our control. We don’t know the disease course, the economics are unprecedented, and government response is erratic. Literally every single community faces the same problem. For example, we aren’t going to “austerity” out of this. Deep thinking at the local level at this stage isn’t going to solve much. FDR-scale federal-scale intervention is a possible solution rendered unlikely by current federal process and personalities. The House and Senate literally can’t meet.
There are some ideas, but not a single person on the planet knows how this is going to play out, at any level from individual to global. Unlike almost any other economic crisis, we aren’t likely to be able to blame this on factors like lack of fiscal discipline. This victims (medical and economic) are largely innocent. (In search of a boogie man, one refrain is, of course, “make China pay”, like that’s realistic).
Best idea I’ve heard is an economic jubilee, where we forgive all debts and pretend this was all a bad dream and move on. An otherwise unthinkable solution to an otherwise intractable problem:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/21/debt-jubilee-is-only-way-avoid-depression/
Paul:
I remember reading your blog back in the day, and I admired it. It was a worthy task, thoughtfully done. It must have also been a gigantic time commitment.
But I’d also say that you came into that discussion with a degree of knowledge, reputation and standing that had a huge hand in why your audience treated you with respect. You were the sole moderator as well. It was on a particular subset of issues, and I’d guess a somewhat insular audience. I checked it out based on news articles I read about it, and because it was refreshing to get the insight of an expert in a particular field in an informal setting about topics I was interested in.
Part of the challenge of this blog is that it has many moderators, the topics are diverse, the folks that comment come from many different viewpoints and experiences, and geography is what holds us together. Community by location is different than community by vocation so to speak.
That doesn’t mean this site can’t improve. It can improve and it does have value as is as well. I think the change made last year to allow guest posts was a terrific improvement, and has allowed different viewpoints to more easily start discussions. I’m glad you are posting here now too. The more folks who establish themselves as known quantities and engage in respectful dialogue, the better a site like this can be.
I’ll just say this about the political scene in Newton regarding this blog. They read it more than you think. Maybe not everyday, but when there is an election or a contentious issue, for better or worse this site and Nextdoor are the only place I know of to discuss an issue with the wider Newton community. I’ve been amazed at how many of them both criticize and quote from this website in the same breadth, or somehow randomly pop up to correct some random fact. Or chime in on an issue that makes them look good. For folks not reading, they sure show up a fair amount when it actually matters to them…
As for me, I certainly don’t look for discussions at city council meetings, or even at events like Hello Washington Street to have significant back and forth. This is pretty much it. Maybe that is just me, but a lot of my neighbors and friends quote back issues that this forum raises, even when they publicly decry this site as a “cesspool”, or insular, or owned by developers, or too tolerate of anonymous posters, or whatever.
With that said, I don’t think this forum is designed to be the best way to access and discuss issues with our city councilors, and I’m not sure what forum can. And frankly, many of them don’t seem all that interested in talking to us either in a wide group setting, instead being much more focused on addressing their supporters. Fewer of our city councilors are willing to be challenged and openly discuss decisions. I admire the ones who post here, discuss issues here, and frankly, face the sometimes difficult and frustrating public here. If your contacts would like to suggest ways to make the forum better, I’d surely listen, as would others. But if those complaining public officials don’t find a way to actually face the public…well…publicly, I’m less inclined to give credence to their complaints about the difficulty of reading and posting here. There is little that a public forum can do to make some of those folks comfortable, because they are only comfortable in their own echo chamber, and they mostly seem to complain about the noisy folks just outside of it to quiet down.
And Newton Highlands Mom, I’m still around. Just posting less. Kids, working from home, cooking, cleaning. Not enough time in the day, and my loved ones need more of my time. Thanks for thinking of me though.
So nice to hear from you, Fig! Excellent perspectives. Thanks!
I’ve had to step back from commenting, simply because of the terms of my current employment. I’d love to say more about development and transit, but I don’t want my point of view mistaken for the MBTA’s. (Obligatory note, this is post is a personal statement.)
That said – there are a few dozen core commenters who have been here for years. Some of us with with our real names, and some with a pseudonym (note, I will not say they are anonymous. They have used a persistent pseudonym, and the comment systems collects their email – real or not – and IP address. Some even show up to the V14 meetups!)
I think very few of us have changed our mind – once it was made up – based on V14. On the other hand, there have been times I’ve learned things or come to an opinion on a topic I knew little about.
I don’t think names are what’s important. There are two commenters here who make me want to write dissertations on why they’re wrong with almost every post. One seems to be foolish, and the other overly privileged. One uses his real name, one a pseudonym. If it were my blog I’d ban them both, if it were fark.com I’d set them to ignore, and if it were reddit I would downvote on reflex.
But this is a simpler system, rarely breaking 100 comments, so what it is works fine.
The lack of local journalism and other local information is a different problem.
@Paul – I am taking this as a reminder to set a high standard for ourselves as bloggers and commenters. We won’t always live up to that high standard, but we can endeavor to do better each day. I hope we will.
Has anyone noticed that most of the frequent commenters who comment with their full name are men? And they are the ones arguing that everyone should be commenting with their real, full name? Do they have any idea how hard it is to be a working woman? Do they realize that maybe we don’t want every comment we put on a blog to come up when a potential employer Googles us? Do they realize that some of us are lower level employees? Do they realize that maybe we don’t want every other mom on the PTO to see everything we post on this blog? To be able to post in a forum with your full name comes from a place of privilege and it’s a privilege that I don’t have.
” To be able to post in a forum with your full name comes from a place of privilege….” Oh please- really? I don’t know if you are being serious…
Paul, I too read both of your blogs and enjoyed them immensely, but find V14 to be a substantially different type of blog.
I know that many councilors read V14 whether they admit it or not. There are also several who comment here.
I don’t find the commenters who use names other than theirs any more continuous than many who use either their own name – or a name that looks like a real name. Many like Tricia, Meredith, MMQP, Fignewtonville, etc. post consistently good information.
It’s been said many times, mostly from the same people, that V14 moderators delete comments that they don’t agree with which has never been the truth but that doesn’t matter to them. It’s easy to see many different viewpoints expressed in many threads.
Also been said a lot that V14 is a left wing, progressive blog which is also not true – there are several of us, including me, who are not that far left and some are more to the center. It’s become confusing because many different political types are disappointed with our federal government’s leadership.
Both of these statements have been disproved many, many times and I consider anyone who does it now to be a troll – only looking to stir the pot or poke the bear.
I’m really happy that Paul Levy and Bob Jampol have joined V14 – both have raised the level of discourse.
@Ubiety: Excellent.
In keeping with several of the preceding comments, I’d also like to thank those of you who agree with my comments.
You’re so awesome!!!
The rest of you philstines need to smarten up tout de suite.
Some comments tend to be snarky and unpleasant, but I enjoy reading the many other comments. Some present a different angle I had not thought of and it is always interesting to see how other people think. Others bring a level of expertise that is really useful.
Thanks to MMQC for explaining the issue of not using real names and reminding us that we are not all privileged.
@Ubiety, you’re saying that both this blog and the city council are run by a cabal of Marxist-Lenninists? LOL. I look forward to the president of our local chamber of commerce, who happens also to be the proprietor of this blog, advocating for the collective ownership of local small businesses.
Ah well, at least we can congratulate ourselves that V14 comments don’t sink to the level of those on the Boston Herald website.
Over the years I’ve heard quite a bit of feedback from a variety of different groups within Newton.
From those who work in City Hall (not elected, but the people doing the work of the city) I hear a bit of respect for anyone who will put their name out there. Their voices aren’t often heard on these forums as they’re not really in a position to comment. They are, however, very hard-working individuals who do their best to keep the city going. I generally receive positive feedback from that group for saying the things that need to be said.
From City Councilors, I hear some say they don’t read, then they can quote almost verbatim from the blog. Those that find themselves under attack tend to downplay it, those who find their opinions reflected tend to use it to prove a point. The same thing happens when I send emails into the city council as part of public comment. I receive emails back from those who agree with me and little back from those who don’t. City Councilors get a LOT of email, they don’t read everything. Take what you want from that.
Then there are the readers who don’t comment. We have a ton of those around, and I find that the people who tell me they read my posts also read Facebook groups and local listserv. Right now, in this local news environment, it’s up to the individual to take in all the information they can and draw their own conclusions.
So, to answer the first question: what are we doing here? We are, at our best, adding to the local discourse in an age when traditional news has abandoned that concept. At our worst, we’re calling each other names. It’s truly up to the individual reader to figure out what to take away from all that.
I’ve lobbed a political hardball only once on V 14 and that was directed at Marti Bowen. It turned out that I was completely off base. We were actually in broad agreement on whatever issue caused this particular tempest in a teapot. I’ve forgotten what that issue was and I suspect that Marti has, as well. I immediately offered an apology and we both moved on. I bring this incident up because I simply won’t attack anyone on this blog, or disparage what they have to say. Personal attacks or”in your face” rejoinders are almost always misguided and misdirected missiles. Whenever I’m tempted to lob one, I sense that it will seldom hit the target the way I want it to hit and it’s more likely to cause a lot of collateral damage to whatever argument I’m trying to convey. Then I think “do I really want to permanently burn a bridge to the person I would be attacking. I think not. I’ve found in Newton, and particularly in Newton, that I can be working against one set of people on a political campaign or community issue, but be with them on some subsequent contest. And when you reach your 80s, you really don’t want to lose the friendships that remain because so many of those you had are gone.
Nobody understood this better than Brian Yates. Brian lost his last campaign because he was really too sick to campaign and because he faced a very formidable opponent who spoke to the concerns and aspirations of many in this City. But the most common question I get is how did Brian survive in two previous contests that he was almost universally predicted to lose. Some of it was Brian’s institutional knowledge, name recognition and the support of people he had helped over the years. Even more was the fact that Brian never made it personal, even against those he tussled with on some highly charged and emotional issues. He was committed to certain issues, but he was also a highly practical politician who knew how not to make enemies unnecessarily.
I was a regular reader and poster to the Newton Tab blog, and then to this blog, even after many people I knew had given up on it, but in recent years even I have chosen to stay away. It is a pity because it could serve a valuable purpose, especially with the decline of the Newton Tab, as a forum to share information as well as opinion, in a community where we are blessed to have so many people with expertise on so many issues. My recommendation would be to have women be the moderators. I believe women in general have a much lower tolerance level for disrespectful dialogue. The first community discussion effort I joined in Newton was in 2007, the Newton Parents listserve, moderated by Greer Swiston and Margaret Albright. They set clear “sandbox rules” and quickly acted to set someone to “moderate” status or remove them if they wouldn’t comply. I moderate a Newtonville google group and try to emulate their example in keeping things respectful . I have removed 2 posters who did not comply – and they were both individuals who support me politically, by the way.
@Emily Norton – I agree. While we have four or five women moderators, they are definitely a minority.
When I think back at where things take a turn for the worse on Village14, I wouldn’t say men have a monopoly as instigators but I would say they are the most frequent perps.
I’m glad to see you posting back here again Counselor and I hope you stick around a bit.
Jerry: on Leadership and to Paul’s original query — Were it have been me, with a sunk investment in making this a more substantial and relevant place (as the prompting post frames for these comments), I’d have chosen a different tone at 11:17pm .. a little more “HUZZAH!” and shouting-out in support of the admirable and stalwart resilience of one who, though capriciously trod-upon, returns to give it another go.
The cynical, among your readers, could understand your word choice to approximate Proximo working to ensure the Colosseum has enough fighters at the ready for the entertainment of the masses to whatever purpose best served the landlord du jour. Call me a cynic for even having the thought, if you will …
This place isn’t Edward R. Murrow or Walter Cronkite journalism, so kindness-motivated soft touches and/or stealing oneself to approximate impartiality is open to being understood as something other than objectivity.
An alternative closing phrase might have read “, and both appreciate and congratulate you on being big enough to look past past buffeting, at the keyboard of some frequenting here, to engage with us, nevertheless, in trying to pursue a greater good.”
Tracking toward Paul’s objective function requires assertion, “more assertion” IMHO.
Well, Mary, if I had thought that my original post might somehow lead to that scene from The Gladiator, I would have posted months ago! It’s one of my favorite scenes from that movie. Thank you for that and your observations, too.
Hi Emily, welcome back!
Mary, I’m not sure I fully follow your metaphor, but it is a terrific reference and a great link. I have to learn to do that linking thing.
A few quick points, will ill intent towards none:
I think folks want different things from this forum, and it isn’t and can’t be all things to all people. A heavily moderated listerv on a narrow topic is different than a broad listserv, which is different than full name only forum, which is different than a point of view forum, which is different than Village14.
By way of example, we had a competing forum which was really beautifully done, called Newtonforum.org. The last post was 2017, but it had pictures that were terrific, it was a heavily curated forum, it required full names. It certainly had an obvious viewpoint as well. It didn’t last. I’d say partly because it required real names, partly because it was an echo chamber for folks who agreed with each other, and partly because I’d imagine its production values were too high to keep doing as a volunteer driven task. I never posted there, although I did read it occasionally. But it was always respectful, a few folks like Bob and Jerry I believe commented there. I stopped going because it was boring. To me, please don’t @ me. That is not meant as an insult, but there was little to no back and forth, and I enjoy discussions and challenges to my worldview in a discussion. Since I didn’t feel comfortable posting under my real name, I was excluded, and since it was mostly folks agreeing with each other, there wasn’t enough discussion to keep going back. And it slowly went away.
Similarly, listservs on a particular topic are much easier to manage, and folks tend to self-select for them. The educational listservs can get heated, but the posters are almost all parents, and while we might disagree with the actions of the school committee or the schools, I’m also vary wary about posting public criticism of those institutions because of fear of embarrassing my kids, or because I worry that the school will take an adversary approach to any ask I make of it with special education or the like. Emily, on your Newtonville listserv, I’m guessing that is a bit of a self selection process as well, as at a minimum they live in Newtonville, they are more likely than not to support you politically (I’m sure they are plenty that don’t, but I’m betting if you tracked who posts and who was a public supporter of you, it would be highly correlated. ) That isn’t a bug, it’s a feature. Again, not a criticism, those listservs are important, but they are a different animal than a community wide forum.
This particular site is designed for (i) ease of use (limited pictures), (ii) limited moderation (despite the complaints, there is no pre-vetting process to post comments, and we now accept guest posts with a respected moderator (Jerry) being the only reviewer.), (iii) all voices available to post (except for sockpuppets and multiple posters), so anonymous voices can be heard, (iv) all topics welcome, with a much broader topic breadth. Newton. That includes schools. Development. Jerry community posts. Random biking posts. Anti-driving posts. Community post it board posts, political discussions, criticism of the blog format posts, and my favorite, Julie tree education posts (seriously, those are my favorites, and I miss them).
Do I think we have a moderator problem? Sometimes, yes. I don’t like seeing the forum get personal, either in the comments or the posts. Testy and snarky are fine in my view. And different folks have different levels of annoyance. I don’t get offended when people call me verbose or blovated in my posting, for instance. I think I got called arrogant recently too. Such is life on any public forum when you put yourself out there. My kids call me names too (out of love I hope). But there is certainly a line, and I think the forum as a whole tries to police itself. It isn’t perfect and it won’t be perfect. And the volunteer moderators (THANK YOU) should try to be the best of us, and not post in anger or frustration too. But that won’t be perfect either. And we clearly have some blind spots where we get too heated and personal from a moderator perspective.
Finally, I really don’t think you can make a public blog that is going to please Newton politicians with anonymous posting. What you gain in the ability of folks to maintain their privacy you lose in posters ability to self-moderate sometimes. It isn’t easy to be criticized, and folks are more honest in their criticism if they know that they can’t be persecuted or punished for it. If I go in for a special permit, do I want to be hated by the City Council? If I need help, do I want to have made a personal enemy of all of my city councilors? Folks are harsher when they are anonymous, but they are also more honest and more willing to criticize. It takes a thick skinned politician to be part of that, and there is very little upside. (That’s why I admired Jim Cote btw, among others who posted here while a city councilor).
But to make it a heavily moderated and orderly listserv means changing the 4 items that I like best about the site. It would certainly be less controversial. Fewer dust-ups. Less participation. It will certainly be easier for city councilors that Paul talked to. And I don’t want it to become Nextdoor Newton either, where everyone can post, and everyone uses their real names (sort of). That serves a purpose, but it certainly isn’t a forum for serious discussions. And real names haven’t helped tone down the snarky comments, etc.
Sigh. I always start with the intent to post a concise post…
Here is what would make the forum better in my view.
1) More participation from folks who care and are willing to write longer posts that are fact based. From any viewpoint. I’m glad when Emily or Susan or Jake posts, but that is only one type of community expert. Give me more Jerry’s and Bob Burkes. Find new Jack Priors, MMQC, Paul Levys. Marti B and Anne A. New posters and different viewpoints are what keep a community site alive in my view, while maintaining enough order so that we are less cesspool and more tidal pool.
2) Invite community institutions to guest post. The League of Women Votes? Newton Dems? Newton Republicans? The Mayor?
3) A weekly open post where folks could bring up issues, which a moderator could highlight in a separate post.
Ok, I’m off to enjoy the day.
@Paul Levy – I loved the existential title on your post (“And you may tell yourself, This is not my beautiful house!”). I think my aspirations for Village14 are way more modest than yours. I don’t view it’s purpose as a way to reach our elected officials and drive public policy. That may occasionally happen, but by accident when it does.
I view Village14’s central purpose as a way to communicate and connect within the citizenry. Put a bunch of random people in a room and talk about local issues – some people will be more knowledgeable and insightful, some will be entertaining and funny, some will be agitated and cranky, some will be inscrutable. When it works well, you can have an interesting gathering, learn something, enjoy hanging out. When it doesn’t, it gets unpleasant and you just want to get out of here.
I wax and wane on Village14 and I suspect many others do to. At times it can be a fascinating place to hang out and at other times it can be like being caught up in someone else’s domestic disturbance.
My aspirations for Village14 are much simpler. When I enjoy coming back for more, then I’m happy with it.
@Mary Presumptuous – “HUZZAH! I’m more than happy to contribute some additional “HUZZAH!’s
@Fignewtonville – Let’s give that a try
fignewton – Re: “.. that linking thing.” — A blueprint and a screwdriver …
1) The text (the characters) we all type into the Submit a Comment box are used (by the website server that then redelivers the uploaded comment as part of a page downloaded by each viewer) is taken in as “plain text”, but is interpreted as HTML at the server. When typed, the characters look like what they are. In the later context, they can have a different meaning …
2) Making any displayed text act as a clickable link is, in HTML, accomplished with an “a Tag”. Here is description of that. To make a link of some portion of your comment text, type a well-formed HTML a tag in with your comment, so to give that to the server to make sense of.
3) And so now you’ve correctly surmised that the “Submit a Comment”, in Item 1 of this comment, appears in bold typeface by use of an HTML “b tag”
Not all servers accepting comments behave the same way, so “your mileage may vary” …