Boston’s new superintendent Tommy Chang is proposing a pretty dramatic shake-up of the city’s public school calendar, including starting classes before Labor Day and eliminating February vacation but making the winter vacation around Christmas/New Year’s longer. Would you favor a similar approach in Newton?
… lengthening the holiday break that runs from Christmas into the New Year would make time for Boston’s increasingly international student body to visit relatives overseas. In the past three years, absences ticked up about 3 percent in the days right after the winter break, according to the School Department.
Unsure what the data says about student performance in schools that do this, but I like sentiment of change. I’d prefer to see a single March break vs February and April. I’m not sure I like the idea of a pre-Labor Day start.
I’d prefer any change to be state-wide.
Unsure what the data says about student performance in schools that do this, but I like sentiment of change. I’d prefer to see a single March break vs February and April. I’m not sure I like the idea of a pre-Labor Day start.
I’d prefer any change to be state-wide.
I would be all for the longer winter break, because my kids have grandparents overseas and it’s much healthier to take them to India in the winter than in the summer/monsoon. But that’s just my story, not a case for Newton-wide adoption.
I would be all for the longer winter break, because my kids have grandparents overseas and it’s much healthier to take them to India in the winter than in the summer/monsoon. But that’s just my story, not a case for Newton-wide adoption.
I think a pre-labor day starting date would lead to the same problem of student absences because it’s a weekend when everyone tends to travel. The other change I think is a good idea. I find February vacation very disruptive to the kids’ learning.
I think a pre-labor day starting date would lead to the same problem of student absences because it’s a weekend when everyone tends to travel. The other change I think is a good idea. I find February vacation very disruptive to the kids’ learning.
Before,Labor Day !?!!!? NO, PLEASE NO!
Before,Labor Day !?!!!? NO, PLEASE NO!
Why would we emulate anything Boston schools do? If Newton and other communities stopped subsidizing Boston schools, they would sink like a stone.
Why would we emulate anything Boston schools do? If Newton and other communities stopped subsidizing Boston schools, they would sink like a stone.
This seems to be all about Tommy Chang helping out the international population. This doesn’t seem to be about benefits to the general population. While I normally like change, this one I’d pass on.
@Tom: Boston isn’t the only place with a large international population. One out of every five Newton residents is foreign born.
This seems to be all about Tommy Chang helping out the international population. This doesn’t seem to be about benefits to the general population. While I normally like change, this one I’d pass on.
@Tom: Boston isn’t the only place with a large international population. One out of every five Newton residents is foreign born.
Looking at the whole calendar would be helpful. . . . . . and thinking about the demographics that attend Newton Public Schools. One thing that concerned me about the Boston announcement was that over 50% of that population receive free/reduced lunch and breakfast. I am concerned that if schools close for over two weeks for “Christmas” vacation to allow foreign travel, what are those students going to do for meals? In addition, if those parents rely on children being in school, Boston is asking alot of those low income parents (who might work at minimum wage and doesn’t have two weeks off to watch the kids). AND, not all students celebrate Christmas! I call the break, December break, however to refer to it as Christmas is once again thinking we are all Christians.
Not to mention Boston Public schools aren’t air conditioned, and sure it might be 95 degrees in the schools in mid-August!
I think we should review our own system. As a working parent (and not all Newton families have one wage earner and a stay at home parent, nor do they all have dual high income parents), I would find it VERY difficult to find care for those weeks in December for my kids. I am fine with giving up February and April vacation for one spring break.
But, I also want to re-examine the half days (Tuesdays and those Thursdays).
Lets look at SNOW DAYS. What is the historical information? Do we have more snow days now than in the past? Lets look at everything. And lets do it for Newton . . . not because Boston is doing it.
Looking at the whole calendar would be helpful. . . . . . and thinking about the demographics that attend Newton Public Schools. One thing that concerned me about the Boston announcement was that over 50% of that population receive free/reduced lunch and breakfast. I am concerned that if schools close for over two weeks for “Christmas” vacation to allow foreign travel, what are those students going to do for meals? In addition, if those parents rely on children being in school, Boston is asking alot of those low income parents (who might work at minimum wage and doesn’t have two weeks off to watch the kids). AND, not all students celebrate Christmas! I call the break, December break, however to refer to it as Christmas is once again thinking we are all Christians.
Not to mention Boston Public schools aren’t air conditioned, and sure it might be 95 degrees in the schools in mid-August!
I think we should review our own system. As a working parent (and not all Newton families have one wage earner and a stay at home parent, nor do they all have dual high income parents), I would find it VERY difficult to find care for those weeks in December for my kids. I am fine with giving up February and April vacation for one spring break.
But, I also want to re-examine the half days (Tuesdays and those Thursdays).
Lets look at SNOW DAYS. What is the historical information? Do we have more snow days now than in the past? Lets look at everything. And lets do it for Newton . . . not because Boston is doing it.
No and no. Kids get stir crazy after a while during winter vacation…and the parent attempting to entertain them goes plain crazy. Keep the Presidents’ Day week vacation; at least there is six-week gap in between.
Starting school before Labor Day? What Jerry said! In the summer, there is plenty for the kids to do.
No and no. Kids get stir crazy after a while during winter vacation…and the parent attempting to entertain them goes plain crazy. Keep the Presidents’ Day week vacation; at least there is six-week gap in between.
Starting school before Labor Day? What Jerry said! In the summer, there is plenty for the kids to do.
@Tom, I believe the article stated that Boston looked at absences around certain times of year in order to make this determination.
Many school districts in Mass start before labor day and the Mass Dept. of Elementary and Secondary Education encourages a before labor day start.
School districts are required to schedule 185 days – 180 days of school + five potential snow days.
@Tom, I believe the article stated that Boston looked at absences around certain times of year in order to make this determination.
Many school districts in Mass start before labor day and the Mass Dept. of Elementary and Secondary Education encourages a before labor day start.
School districts are required to schedule 185 days – 180 days of school + five potential snow days.
Look, I have no problem with a discussion (like we’re having here) on the issue. I just haven’t heard an argument, yet, to make the change. People are looking to make a change that will affect everyone, in my opinion, a changh this big needs to benefit atleast half. Also, I’m obviously not the school super, but I don’t hear massive complaints from the international community. It seems we’d be making change because others have made change. Change for the sake of change isn’t always good.
Look, I have no problem with a discussion (like we’re having here) on the issue. I just haven’t heard an argument, yet, to make the change. People are looking to make a change that will affect everyone, in my opinion, a changh this big needs to benefit atleast half. Also, I’m obviously not the school super, but I don’t hear massive complaints from the international community. It seems we’d be making change because others have made change. Change for the sake of change isn’t always good.
Correction: I just haven’t heard an argument, yet, to make me change my mind.
Correction: I just haven’t heard an argument, yet, to make me change my mind.
No school before Labor Day.
Get rid of February vacation except for President’s Day, leaving 1 day out of school and adding 4 back.
In April MA has Patriot’s Day off from school anyway so having the spring vacation there just takes away from school the same number of days (4).
Putting it in March instead would be taking 5 days away from school, meaning 1 day will have to be added to the class time somewhere else to keep the 185 days.
I don’t think adding days off in January makes any sense at all for all of the reasons stated above.
Connecticut, where my daughter lives, had no February vacation starting last year, but had an April vacation and got out earlier in May. They will start after Labor Day next year but get out a little later in May. That way they eased it into the school year.
They also stopped including snow days in the school calendar with the condition that any snow days would be individually added to the end of the school year up to 5 days.
It seems to be working out quite well.
No school before Labor Day.
Get rid of February vacation except for President’s Day, leaving 1 day out of school and adding 4 back.
In April MA has Patriot’s Day off from school anyway so having the spring vacation there just takes away from school the same number of days (4).
Putting it in March instead would be taking 5 days away from school, meaning 1 day will have to be added to the class time somewhere else to keep the 185 days.
I don’t think adding days off in January makes any sense at all for all of the reasons stated above.
Connecticut, where my daughter lives, had no February vacation starting last year, but had an April vacation and got out earlier in May. They will start after Labor Day next year but get out a little later in May. That way they eased it into the school year.
They also stopped including snow days in the school calendar with the condition that any snow days would be individually added to the end of the school year up to 5 days.
It seems to be working out quite well.
People have got to be joking if they think the Newton School Committee is even capable of making any major scheduling changes. They have left 3000 high school students exposed to depression, because they can’t even figure out how to change the bus schedule.
I see that Margaret Albright has commented on this thread. I wonder if she’d take a moment to explain the rationale behind keeping tackle football as a high school sport in Newton? The School Committee appears to have paid no attention to the evidence that teens who participate in tackle football have a high rate of traumatic brain injuries and life altering orthopedic issues.
People have got to be joking if they think the Newton School Committee is even capable of making any major scheduling changes. They have left 3000 high school students exposed to depression, because they can’t even figure out how to change the bus schedule.
I see that Margaret Albright has commented on this thread. I wonder if she’d take a moment to explain the rationale behind keeping tackle football as a high school sport in Newton? The School Committee appears to have paid no attention to the evidence that teens who participate in tackle football have a high rate of traumatic brain injuries and life altering orthopedic issues.
I meant June – not May. Sorry.
I meant June – not May. Sorry.
@ Mike – let’s keep the comments on topic.
@ Mike – let’s keep the comments on topic.
Lots of school districts nationwide start school as early as mid-August, but I never understood that and wouldn’t be for it here. I agree with those saying holiday break is long enough already, not sure the rationale there.
The idea of combining Feb and April vacations into one spring break, possibly in March, is intriguing. I believe a lot of private schools do that- and it would allow school to end 3 days earlier (accounting for Presidents and Patriots Days) than normal.
Lots of school districts nationwide start school as early as mid-August, but I never understood that and wouldn’t be for it here. I agree with those saying holiday break is long enough already, not sure the rationale there.
The idea of combining Feb and April vacations into one spring break, possibly in March, is intriguing. I believe a lot of private schools do that- and it would allow school to end 3 days earlier (accounting for Presidents and Patriots Days) than normal.
@Kevin– You may feel a conversation about vacation time is important. To me, it’s just another layer of muck covering up some very troubling aspects of our school system, and the School Committee’s complete failure to adequately address them.
@Kevin– You may feel a conversation about vacation time is important. To me, it’s just another layer of muck covering up some very troubling aspects of our school system, and the School Committee’s complete failure to adequately address them.
I don’t really care when schools starts or what the calendar looks like, but please, make decisions based on what works best for Newton kids and families. What Boston does or what DESE encourages is irrelevant to the conversation. Boston isn’t a comparable community in terms of demographics and DESE isn’t a credible reference at this point in time.
In either the late 1990’s or early 2000’s the School Committee wanted to eliminate the February and April vacations and have a one week vacation (in March, I think). The high school students and parents vehemently opposed the change and the idea was dropped. I don’t remember what their issues were, but that constituency was very vocal in its opposition.
I don’t really care when schools starts or what the calendar looks like, but please, make decisions based on what works best for Newton kids and families. What Boston does or what DESE encourages is irrelevant to the conversation. Boston isn’t a comparable community in terms of demographics and DESE isn’t a credible reference at this point in time.
In either the late 1990’s or early 2000’s the School Committee wanted to eliminate the February and April vacations and have a one week vacation (in March, I think). The high school students and parents vehemently opposed the change and the idea was dropped. I don’t remember what their issues were, but that constituency was very vocal in its opposition.
What Jane said.
What Jane said.
I realize from reading Doug’s post, I mixed up the days in school and out. I think I should have just scrapped it altogether.
I agree with Doug. Maybe it is time to discus a change again. Also agree with Jane about Boston DESE.
I realize from reading Doug’s post, I mixed up the days in school and out. I think I should have just scrapped it altogether.
I agree with Doug. Maybe it is time to discus a change again. Also agree with Jane about Boston DESE.
No and no.
No and no.
@Mike – issues you raise may be important and important to the community, so find the right medium. The question asked by the post is about vacation times and school start dates.
@Mike – issues you raise may be important and important to the community, so find the right medium. The question asked by the post is about vacation times and school start dates.
The article in the Globe sparks a conversion; I don’t think anyone means it to be prescriptive for Newton. I would suspect that change in one system absent a state-wide change would be exceedingly more difficult given that teachers, administrators and school staff may live in different cities with different schedules.
The article in the Globe sparks a conversion; I don’t think anyone means it to be prescriptive for Newton. I would suspect that change in one system absent a state-wide change would be exceedingly more difficult given that teachers, administrators and school staff may live in different cities with different schedules.
The article in the Globe sparks a CONVERSATION…
The article in the Globe sparks a CONVERSATION…
My suggestion, Kevin, would be that you simply don’t comment on my posts. That might help keep this thread on your preferred topic. In my opinion though, the health and wellbeing of students is not only germane to any school related thread, it should be at the forefront of every conversation about Newton schools.
I personally find it appalling that the School Committee has been derelict in their responsibility to the physical and mental health of so many students. It is outrageous to leave early morning high school start times in place, when the members of the School Committee know that doing so significantly increases stress and depression in teens. The School Committees’ history on the issue of early morning start times is a disgrace…
And their lack of action to terminate tackle football as a school sport is equally indefensible. How many studies and stories do these people need to read, before understanding that football is not an appropriate sport for public school?
So if people want to use this thread to discuss school vacation, go right ahead. I’m going to continue using every means at my disposal, to call public attention to these issues that have serious health consequences for thousands of Newton teens every day.
My suggestion, Kevin, would be that you simply don’t comment on my posts. That might help keep this thread on your preferred topic. In my opinion though, the health and wellbeing of students is not only germane to any school related thread, it should be at the forefront of every conversation about Newton schools.
I personally find it appalling that the School Committee has been derelict in their responsibility to the physical and mental health of so many students. It is outrageous to leave early morning high school start times in place, when the members of the School Committee know that doing so significantly increases stress and depression in teens. The School Committees’ history on the issue of early morning start times is a disgrace…
And their lack of action to terminate tackle football as a school sport is equally indefensible. How many studies and stories do these people need to read, before understanding that football is not an appropriate sport for public school?
So if people want to use this thread to discuss school vacation, go right ahead. I’m going to continue using every means at my disposal, to call public attention to these issues that have serious health consequences for thousands of Newton teens every day.
Mike,
The problems all start at the top.
Mike,
The problems all start at the top.
I agree, Tom. There’s just a complete lack of leadership on the issues I’ve raised. Mayor Warren could change high school start times with the stroke of a pen.
@Kevin: I’m sorry to take this thread off-topic but here goes.
@Mike writes:
I doubt that is true. Your misunderstanding of what our mayor can or can’t do, reflects poorly on your advocacy for this important objective.
If you are truly willing to use “every means” at your disposal, that could/should include (a) running for School Committee and recruiting like-minded candidates to do the same (b) showing up at School Committee meetings and speaking on this issue during the public comment periods (c) writing od-eds in the TAB (d) looking into a ballot question (e) circulating petitions (f) advocating for this change not just in Newton but on Beacon Hill or perhaps even Washington DC., etc. Have you or are you planning to do any of those things?
Mike: I applaud your commitment to this issue and appreciate your participation on Village 14. But repeatedly advocating for it here is not “every means.”
I agree, Tom. There’s just a complete lack of leadership on the issues I’ve raised. Mayor Warren could change high school start times with the stroke of a pen.
@Kevin: I’m sorry to take this thread off-topic but here goes.
@Mike writes:
I doubt that is true. Your misunderstanding of what our mayor can or can’t do, reflects poorly on your advocacy for this important objective.
If you are truly willing to use “every means” at your disposal, that could/should include (a) running for School Committee and recruiting like-minded candidates to do the same (b) showing up at School Committee meetings and speaking on this issue during the public comment periods (c) writing od-eds in the TAB (d) looking into a ballot question (e) circulating petitions (f) advocating for this change not just in Newton but on Beacon Hill or perhaps even Washington DC., etc. Have you or are you planning to do any of those things?
Mike: I applaud your commitment to this issue and appreciate your participation on Village 14. But repeatedly advocating for it here is not “every means.”
Whether I comment on your post or not will apparently not keep this discussion on the topic posted by Village 14. You obviously have a passion for these issues.
I prefer to discuss what was asked. You want a larger forum for Newton school policies.
Whether I comment on your post or not will apparently not keep this discussion on the topic posted by Village 14. You obviously have a passion for these issues.
I prefer to discuss what was asked. You want a larger forum for Newton school policies.
Greg writes: “your misunderstanding of what our mayor can or can not do”, is at the very least debatable. Not certain that it is Mike who misunderstands.
The mayor has broad authority in the city, under the present charter. In fact, the executive powers “shall be vested solely in the mayor”.
Does that include an “executive action” to safeguard the well being of the public school children? Particularly since the charter does not explicitly give the SC the authority to set start times, I think any mayor acting in the best interest of the child population of the city, would have a pretty strong case, if anyone would even dare to challenge it in court.
There may be some general Mass. Law which does explicitly give school committees the authority to establish start times each morning, but absent that, I’m not sure what your argument is, Greg.
Fundamentally Greg your advice for Mike may not be the best. While technically, when he states “every means”, it could be construed as just that. But, you and I both know Mike to be serious, dedicated, and busy; so he isn’t about to try everything, only things that may result in positive change. running for office is not likely to result in change, even if elected. What causes change is the voice of the people. If enough parents really ask for this, it will happen. That takes word of mouth. If one accepts your numbers for the total people reading this blog, then this is a very good place to start.
…and the more who “hijack this or any other thread” to show support, the quicker this will happen. Silence and apathy is always the greatest enemy of change.
The evidence on this is pretty strong, it links with depression (sleep deprivation), something you would think people would be concerned about for our children.
Hi Neal: You’re back!! My comment about what the mayor can or can’t do wasn’t related to the charter but the cold reality that changing the schedule has a domino effect on so many things: Teacher contracts, bus schedules and contracts, inter school sports and afterschool programs, parents schedules, aftershool jobs, our middle and elementary schools, and many things I’m sure I don’t realize. Sure, perhaps the charter would allow a mayor to sign an order, walk away and magically expect it to happen next week. But effective, responsible leaders need more than magical thinking to enact change.
None of this is an argument about the many benefits of changing start times or the harm the current schedule has on teenagers. It’s a documented problem. It should have happened already. I’m not aware of anyone arguing that. But Mike’s slash and burn…fire everyone involved…solution is not the answer.
Greg writes: “your misunderstanding of what our mayor can or can not do”, is at the very least debatable. Not certain that it is Mike who misunderstands.
The mayor has broad authority in the city, under the present charter. In fact, the executive powers “shall be vested solely in the mayor”.
Does that include an “executive action” to safeguard the well being of the public school children? Particularly since the charter does not explicitly give the SC the authority to set start times, I think any mayor acting in the best interest of the child population of the city, would have a pretty strong case, if anyone would even dare to challenge it in court.
There may be some general Mass. Law which does explicitly give school committees the authority to establish start times each morning, but absent that, I’m not sure what your argument is, Greg.
Fundamentally Greg your advice for Mike may not be the best. While technically, when he states “every means”, it could be construed as just that. But, you and I both know Mike to be serious, dedicated, and busy; so he isn’t about to try everything, only things that may result in positive change. running for office is not likely to result in change, even if elected. What causes change is the voice of the people. If enough parents really ask for this, it will happen. That takes word of mouth. If one accepts your numbers for the total people reading this blog, then this is a very good place to start.
…and the more who “hijack this or any other thread” to show support, the quicker this will happen. Silence and apathy is always the greatest enemy of change.
The evidence on this is pretty strong, it links with depression (sleep deprivation), something you would think people would be concerned about for our children.
Hi Neal: You’re back!! My comment about what the mayor can or can’t do wasn’t related to the charter but the cold reality that changing the schedule has a domino effect on so many things: Teacher contracts, bus schedules and contracts, inter school sports and afterschool programs, parents schedules, aftershool jobs, our middle and elementary schools, and many things I’m sure I don’t realize. Sure, perhaps the charter would allow a mayor to sign an order, walk away and magically expect it to happen next week. But effective, responsible leaders need more than magical thinking to enact change.
None of this is an argument about the many benefits of changing start times or the harm the current schedule has on teenagers. It’s a documented problem. It should have happened already. I’m not aware of anyone arguing that. But Mike’s slash and burn…fire everyone involved…solution is not the answer.
@Greg– I appreciate you suggesting I should run for School Committee. Your assumption being, I would somehow be in a better position to change high school start times if I were a SC member. Personally, I believe I would be in a worse position, having only one vote among a group of people who clearly disagree with me on the urgency of changing start times.
My obligation as a citizen is to speak up when the government screws up. So I will continue to speak out against the systematic child abuse taking place in our school system. Make no mistake about it, deliberately depriving children of sleep and exposing them to the resulting stress, depression, and other physical and emotional consequences, is child abuse.
Likewise, sponsoring a school sport which has been clearly and repeatedly linked to brain injuries and life-long orthopedic injuries, is yet another dereliction of the SC’s responsibility to the health and safety of the student population. Are you in favor of continuing football as a public school sport, Greg?
As for our Mayor’s ability to put an end to at least some of this madness, here is the verbiage from our City Charter which enables him [if he chooses] to say what time high school buildings will be opened in the morning…
Newton City Charter–Article 3.–Executive Branch–Sec.3-2–Executive Powers;
“… The executive and administrative powers of the City shall be vested solely in the Mayor, and may be exercised by him either personally or through the several City agencies under his general supervision and control.”
Thanks Councilor Hess-Mahan.
@Mike: If you were a member of the School Committee you’d have a bigger bully pulpit and the chance to advocate for the many issues that matter to you on a consistent basis. I agree with you on school start times, football injuries, backpacks, etc. I disagree that the solution is to fire everyone (as you’ve advocated many times) or to sign an executive order without an execution plan.
If you sat on the committee I suspect you’d also come to understand why these problems can’t be magically solved. Is it the only path to achieving changes? Certainly not. But you’re the guy who said he was willing to use “every means.”
@Greg– I appreciate you suggesting I should run for School Committee. Your assumption being, I would somehow be in a better position to change high school start times if I were a SC member. Personally, I believe I would be in a worse position, having only one vote among a group of people who clearly disagree with me on the urgency of changing start times.
My obligation as a citizen is to speak up when the government screws up. So I will continue to speak out against the systematic child abuse taking place in our school system. Make no mistake about it, deliberately depriving children of sleep and exposing them to the resulting stress, depression, and other physical and emotional consequences, is child abuse.
Likewise, sponsoring a school sport which has been clearly and repeatedly linked to brain injuries and life-long orthopedic injuries, is yet another dereliction of the SC’s responsibility to the health and safety of the student population. Are you in favor of continuing football as a public school sport, Greg?
As for our Mayor’s ability to put an end to at least some of this madness, here is the verbiage from our City Charter which enables him [if he chooses] to say what time high school buildings will be opened in the morning…
Newton City Charter–Article 3.–Executive Branch–Sec.3-2–Executive Powers;
“… The executive and administrative powers of the City shall be vested solely in the Mayor, and may be exercised by him either personally or through the several City agencies under his general supervision and control.”
Thanks Councilor Hess-Mahan.
@Mike: If you were a member of the School Committee you’d have a bigger bully pulpit and the chance to advocate for the many issues that matter to you on a consistent basis. I agree with you on school start times, football injuries, backpacks, etc. I disagree that the solution is to fire everyone (as you’ve advocated many times) or to sign an executive order without an execution plan.
If you sat on the committee I suspect you’d also come to understand why these problems can’t be magically solved. Is it the only path to achieving changes? Certainly not. But you’re the guy who said he was willing to use “every means.”
Neal and Mike, you should also consult Article 4 of the Charter concerning the powers and duties of the School Committee.
Article 4, Section 3 of the City Charter provides, in relevant part, that
Chapter 71, Section 37 of the Massachusetts General Laws provides in relevant part that:
While the Mayor is an ex officio member of the School Committee (Art. 4, Sec. 4-1(a) of the City Charter), it is up to the School Committee as a whole to established “educational goals and policies for the schools in the district.” In addition, a change in the schedule–whether earlier start times, starting school in August, eliminating vacation weeks, lengthening the school year, etc.–would have both collective bargaining and budgetary impacts that require approval from the School Committee, the Mayor and the City Council, as well as agreement from the teachers’ union. Even if no one else were to go to court over an executive order changing school start times, I would be surprised if the teachers union did not.
So I don’t believe that the Mayor can change high school start times by fiat. Nor would I find that desirable, even though I agree that high school start times should be later.
Neal and Mike, you should also consult Article 4 of the Charter concerning the powers and duties of the School Committee.
Article 4, Section 3 of the City Charter provides, in relevant part, that
Chapter 71, Section 37 of the Massachusetts General Laws provides in relevant part that:
While the Mayor is an ex officio member of the School Committee (Art. 4, Sec. 4-1(a) of the City Charter), it is up to the School Committee as a whole to established “educational goals and policies for the schools in the district.” In addition, a change in the schedule–whether earlier start times, starting school in August, eliminating vacation weeks, lengthening the school year, etc.–would have both collective bargaining and budgetary impacts that require approval from the School Committee, the Mayor and the City Council, as well as agreement from the teachers’ union. Even if no one else were to go to court over an executive order changing school start times, I would be surprised if the teachers union did not.
So I don’t believe that the Mayor can change high school start times by fiat. Nor would I find that desirable, even though I agree that high school start times should be later.
@Ted– You are the same Ted Hess-Mahan who said it was too late for the City to get 6 additional affordable units from the developer at Austin Street… just a day before the city got 6 additional affordable units from the developer at Austin Street, correct? Save me the time of going back through the V-14 archives.
And since you’ve run for Mayor before, and the possibility exists that you’ll run again, I am interested in how you interpret the power of our Mayor as defined in the Charter. Do you dispute that Mayor Warren has the authority to determine what time a municipal building opens? Because that is the only relevant factor in play. Yes or no, Ted… Am I correct that Mayor Warren could control what time our two high school buildings open in the morning, by using his administrative powers?
@Ted– You are the same Ted Hess-Mahan who said it was too late for the City to get 6 additional affordable units from the developer at Austin Street… just a day before the city got 6 additional affordable units from the developer at Austin Street, correct? Save me the time of going back through the V-14 archives.
And since you’ve run for Mayor before, and the possibility exists that you’ll run again, I am interested in how you interpret the power of our Mayor as defined in the Charter. Do you dispute that Mayor Warren has the authority to determine what time a municipal building opens? Because that is the only relevant factor in play. Yes or no, Ted… Am I correct that Mayor Warren could control what time our two high school buildings open in the morning, by using his administrative powers?
Mike, yeah, I blow it now and then. and I still would rather have seen 6 added units of middle income housing instead. But I am pretty sure the Mayor would be overstepping by unilaterally changing the start times at the schools. That is not to say that as Mayor he cannot lead on this issue by advocating for it and committing to supplement the budget if necessary to get it done.
This is a separation of powers issue. The Mayor can issue any executive order he wants. But the question is, can he enforce it? And I think the answer to that is “no,” not without approval from the School Committee and the City Council, not to mention the agreement of the teachers’ union.
Mike, yeah, I blow it now and then. and I still would rather have seen 6 added units of middle income housing instead. But I am pretty sure the Mayor would be overstepping by unilaterally changing the start times at the schools. That is not to say that as Mayor he cannot lead on this issue by advocating for it and committing to supplement the budget if necessary to get it done.
This is a separation of powers issue. The Mayor can issue any executive order he wants. But the question is, can he enforce it? And I think the answer to that is “no,” not without approval from the School Committee and the City Council, not to mention the agreement of the teachers’ union.
Ted– You’re convoluting the issue, and dancing around my question. Greg has suggested magical powers are somehow necessary to change high school start times. I don’t subscribe to the magical powers theory. I believe it simply takes leadership to bring about this critical change. I’ve seen you demonstrate tremendous leadership skills in the past, which was one of many reasons I voted for you to become Mayor. I’d love to see you use those leadership skills to help bring about a change in high school start times.
@Mike: Not magical powers, just magical thinking that assumes saying high school now starts a half hour later means all the dominoes that need to fall for that to happen would magically solve themselves.
Ted– You’re convoluting the issue, and dancing around my question. Greg has suggested magical powers are somehow necessary to change high school start times. I don’t subscribe to the magical powers theory. I believe it simply takes leadership to bring about this critical change. I’ve seen you demonstrate tremendous leadership skills in the past, which was one of many reasons I voted for you to become Mayor. I’d love to see you use those leadership skills to help bring about a change in high school start times.
@Mike: Not magical powers, just magical thinking that assumes saying high school now starts a half hour later means all the dominoes that need to fall for that to happen would magically solve themselves.
Wouldn’t changing high school start and end times – and, thereby changing the work hours of teachers and staff – require collective bargaining? The Mayor announcing that high school will begin at 8:30 and end at 3:30 starting in September won’t be of much value if the teachers are contracted to teach from 7:50 to 2:50 and an agreement can’t be reached before the school year starts. (Not to mention, not a very collaborative approach to a major change that will have an enormous impact on everyone – students, teachers, families, local businesses, etc. Some of that impact will be good, some not so good. But I know that isn’t a factor for you.)
As for the topic at hand… Start school before Labor Day? Never! Two weeks in December? Shoot me now. I have no strong opinion on February vacation, but I really like starting April vacation with Patriot’s Day/Marathon.
Wouldn’t changing high school start and end times – and, thereby changing the work hours of teachers and staff – require collective bargaining? The Mayor announcing that high school will begin at 8:30 and end at 3:30 starting in September won’t be of much value if the teachers are contracted to teach from 7:50 to 2:50 and an agreement can’t be reached before the school year starts. (Not to mention, not a very collaborative approach to a major change that will have an enormous impact on everyone – students, teachers, families, local businesses, etc. Some of that impact will be good, some not so good. But I know that isn’t a factor for you.)
As for the topic at hand… Start school before Labor Day? Never! Two weeks in December? Shoot me now. I have no strong opinion on February vacation, but I really like starting April vacation with Patriot’s Day/Marathon.
I should think that a decision to change dates of breaks and year starts – as well as start times – would involve teachers’ unions and other stakeholders as well. That doesn’t mean either could not happen, but I highly doubt that these things are the “stroke of a pen” away.
I should think that a decision to change dates of breaks and year starts – as well as start times – would involve teachers’ unions and other stakeholders as well. That doesn’t mean either could not happen, but I highly doubt that these things are the “stroke of a pen” away.
…I don’t know, it was all about collective bargaining that first responders couldn’t carry Narcan, and then poof, people starting complaining, an online petition started, and within weeks, a resolution/agreement.
I remember, people didn’t care that it was a collective bargaining issue.
It isn’t rocket science this later start time, and if you had someone who really cared, I mean really cared, this would be done. You would think we have never ever changed a start time or date for a school before.
We talk about the tragedy of the loss of life of our teens. We spend a whole couple of days lamenting, what can we do/what could we have done. and then….. the sad truth… nothing much.
This matters with respect to their( school children) mental well being. It matters a lot according to so many experts. and yet, our school committee and mayor sit around and do nothing. ( a committee? to figure out what?)
There appears to be an indisputable link between sleep deprivation and depression; what do you think links with depression? How hard is it to draw the lines, and inferences? This is the most serious matter we have, and our school committee and mayor have dragged their collective feet for years, while the evidence piles up.
I promise you, it can be done; if enough people voiced concern, it would.
…I don’t know, it was all about collective bargaining that first responders couldn’t carry Narcan, and then poof, people starting complaining, an online petition started, and within weeks, a resolution/agreement.
I remember, people didn’t care that it was a collective bargaining issue.
It isn’t rocket science this later start time, and if you had someone who really cared, I mean really cared, this would be done. You would think we have never ever changed a start time or date for a school before.
We talk about the tragedy of the loss of life of our teens. We spend a whole couple of days lamenting, what can we do/what could we have done. and then….. the sad truth… nothing much.
This matters with respect to their( school children) mental well being. It matters a lot according to so many experts. and yet, our school committee and mayor sit around and do nothing. ( a committee? to figure out what?)
There appears to be an indisputable link between sleep deprivation and depression; what do you think links with depression? How hard is it to draw the lines, and inferences? This is the most serious matter we have, and our school committee and mayor have dragged their collective feet for years, while the evidence piles up.
I promise you, it can be done; if enough people voiced concern, it would.
What Ted said about powers and duties of the mayor and school committee. In the present charter, there is no way that a mayor could make a unilateral decisions about this issue. This change will involve an expenditure of funds and that requires approval by the City Council.
What Ted said about powers and duties of the mayor and school committee. In the present charter, there is no way that a mayor could make a unilateral decisions about this issue. This change will involve an expenditure of funds and that requires approval by the City Council.
I agree that high school needs to start later, without a doubt. I’ve had personal experience with sleep deprivation being a factor that lead to depression in a teenager who attempted suicide and a young adult who committed suicide.
I think that SC members should have made this happen years ago and should now quit wasting time. I do like that our SC is working at the state level too because if the start times are changed at the state level, Newton’s problems with trying to make everyone happy will magically disappear and the teacher’s unions’ contracts will have been worked out in the process.
I agree that high school needs to start later, without a doubt. I’ve had personal experience with sleep deprivation being a factor that lead to depression in a teenager who attempted suicide and a young adult who committed suicide.
I think that SC members should have made this happen years ago and should now quit wasting time. I do like that our SC is working at the state level too because if the start times are changed at the state level, Newton’s problems with trying to make everyone happy will magically disappear and the teacher’s unions’ contracts will have been worked out in the process.
I state a fact… “Mayor Warren could change high school start times with the stroke of a pen.”
Greg says, “I doubt that is true,” and tells me that my “misunderstanding” of mayoral power undermines my “advocacy” for later high school start times.
Then I point to the exact language in the City Charter that empowers Mayor Warren to make the change… “The executive and administrative powers of the City shall be vested solely in the Mayor, and may be exercised by him either personally or through the several City agencies under his general supervision and control.”
No one disputes the fact, or challenges my interpretation of the Charter, [except Jane, who is factually incorrect]. But several people seem very comfortable defending the status quo of early morning start times.
Those excuse makers are grossly underestimating the severity of the problem [which is insidious], and the urgency to deal with it. The excuse makers are part of the problem, providing aid and comfort to a School Committee that has abdicated it’s responsibility for the health and wellbeing of thousands of children. So keep on making those excuses folks. You are the reason this issue remains as an issue. Maybe you can fool yourselves into thinking you have no culpability the next time a sleep deprived, stressed-out, depressed student overdoses on drugs or commits suicide. Trust me on this… I will take no comfort at all in saying “I told you so.” My only reaction will be anger at myself, for having not fought even harder to make a change.
I state a fact… “Mayor Warren could change high school start times with the stroke of a pen.”
Greg says, “I doubt that is true,” and tells me that my “misunderstanding” of mayoral power undermines my “advocacy” for later high school start times.
Then I point to the exact language in the City Charter that empowers Mayor Warren to make the change… “The executive and administrative powers of the City shall be vested solely in the Mayor, and may be exercised by him either personally or through the several City agencies under his general supervision and control.”
No one disputes the fact, or challenges my interpretation of the Charter, [except Jane, who is factually incorrect]. But several people seem very comfortable defending the status quo of early morning start times.
Those excuse makers are grossly underestimating the severity of the problem [which is insidious], and the urgency to deal with it. The excuse makers are part of the problem, providing aid and comfort to a School Committee that has abdicated it’s responsibility for the health and wellbeing of thousands of children. So keep on making those excuses folks. You are the reason this issue remains as an issue. Maybe you can fool yourselves into thinking you have no culpability the next time a sleep deprived, stressed-out, depressed student overdoses on drugs or commits suicide. Trust me on this… I will take no comfort at all in saying “I told you so.” My only reaction will be anger at myself, for having not fought even harder to make a change.
From the charter: The executive branch shall never exercise any legislative power, and the legislative branch shall never exercise any executive power.
More importantly, Mike, it’s troubling that you continue to use other families’ tragedies – without their consent – to further your agenda. If this is really important to you, then do something about it. Writing on a blog isn’t doing anything. At the very least, stick to the data and leave individual families other than your own out of it.
From the charter: The executive branch shall never exercise any legislative power, and the legislative branch shall never exercise any executive power.
More importantly, Mike, it’s troubling that you continue to use other families’ tragedies – without their consent – to further your agenda. If this is really important to you, then do something about it. Writing on a blog isn’t doing anything. At the very least, stick to the data and leave individual families other than your own out of it.
What if you’re all right and the charter says he can’t unilaterally change start times and yet he does anyway. What happens then? Lawsuits? Challenges, by then it’s too late. By the time anything occurs the times have been changed. The Mayor could lead on this issue by standing up, lead from the front and say I want to see later start times in the high schools and here is why. I assure you the majority of the SC will follow.
What if you’re all right and the charter says he can’t unilaterally change start times and yet he does anyway. What happens then? Lawsuits? Challenges, by then it’s too late. By the time anything occurs the times have been changed. The Mayor could lead on this issue by standing up, lead from the front and say I want to see later start times in the high schools and here is why. I assure you the majority of the SC will follow.
@Jane– I made no reference to any past tragedy. None! I was very deliberate in avoiding any references to past events. My comment was a cautionary one about the inevitability of future tragedies.
But I have a straight forward question for you. Since you’re on the Charter Commission, I’m interested in your interpretation. I made reference to the Mayor’s power, as articulated by the City Charter. And my contention is that the Mayor has the authority to set the time any municipal building opens. It has nothing to do with Executive vs. Legislative power. It’s a simple point. The Mayor can determine what time a municipal building opens. Do you agree or disagree with that very limited premise?
@Jane– I made no reference to any past tragedy. None! I was very deliberate in avoiding any references to past events. My comment was a cautionary one about the inevitability of future tragedies.
But I have a straight forward question for you. Since you’re on the Charter Commission, I’m interested in your interpretation. I made reference to the Mayor’s power, as articulated by the City Charter. And my contention is that the Mayor has the authority to set the time any municipal building opens. It has nothing to do with Executive vs. Legislative power. It’s a simple point. The Mayor can determine what time a municipal building opens. Do you agree or disagree with that very limited premise?
The issue of high school start times has nothing to do with when a building opens. School buildings open at 6:00 AM so that custodians, teachers, and staff can be prepared for the school day.
The issue of high school start times has nothing to do with when a building opens. School buildings open at 6:00 AM so that custodians, teachers, and staff can be prepared for the school day.
@Jane– How about answering the question. Does the Mayor have the authority under the Charter to determine what time a municipal building opens? I think you’re avoiding answering the question, because it’s clear from the verbiage that he does.
Regarding your accusation that I’m somehow “using other families’ tragedies–without their consent–to further your agenda”… please direct me to the specific post you’re referencing. It is never my intention to exploit anyone’s pain or tragedy. If I did so inadvertently, I’d be the first one asking the moderator to remove the offending post. So please either apologize, or tell me specifically which post you’re talking about.
@Jane– How about answering the question. Does the Mayor have the authority under the Charter to determine what time a municipal building opens? I think you’re avoiding answering the question, because it’s clear from the verbiage that he does.
Regarding your accusation that I’m somehow “using other families’ tragedies–without their consent–to further your agenda”… please direct me to the specific post you’re referencing. It is never my intention to exploit anyone’s pain or tragedy. If I did so inadvertently, I’d be the first one asking the moderator to remove the offending post. So please either apologize, or tell me specifically which post you’re talking about.
are we possibly sensing a conflict of interest by a charter commission member or is close-mindedness prerequisite for failed charter revision?
are we possibly sensing a conflict of interest by a charter commission member or is close-mindedness prerequisite for failed charter revision?
Last I heard, we lived in a democracy and not a dictatorship. The Mayor, City Council, and School Committee make decisions in the best interest of the residents, including students in the school system.
It’s in the best interest of the students to enter a building that is ready to receive them. Locking custodians, teachers, parents, and students out of the school until the opening bell is a preposterous (and unsafe) idea. If any Mayor tried to take such a unilateral action, this blog would go absolutely nuts.
And on that note, I’m off for Wisconsin. Not trying to hijack your thread, Greg, but Go Badgers!
Last I heard, we lived in a democracy and not a dictatorship. The Mayor, City Council, and School Committee make decisions in the best interest of the residents, including students in the school system.
It’s in the best interest of the students to enter a building that is ready to receive them. Locking custodians, teachers, parents, and students out of the school until the opening bell is a preposterous (and unsafe) idea. If any Mayor tried to take such a unilateral action, this blog would go absolutely nuts.
And on that note, I’m off for Wisconsin. Not trying to hijack your thread, Greg, but Go Badgers!
You may not have intended it, Mike, but to me “the next time” implies a previous time.
And a simple question for you – what is accomplished by the Mayor decreeing what time a building opens and closes if it doesn’t match the hours that teachers and students are there?
P.S. I’m actually on your side here. I have two teenagers and one almost-teen. I want a middle and high school start time between 8:30 and 9am. I also want an elementary start time no earlier than 8am. And I think it’s complicated. Doable, but complicated, and it’s going to cost money.
You may not have intended it, Mike, but to me “the next time” implies a previous time.
And a simple question for you – what is accomplished by the Mayor decreeing what time a building opens and closes if it doesn’t match the hours that teachers and students are there?
P.S. I’m actually on your side here. I have two teenagers and one almost-teen. I want a middle and high school start time between 8:30 and 9am. I also want an elementary start time no earlier than 8am. And I think it’s complicated. Doable, but complicated, and it’s going to cost money.
Tricia,
What do your friends who have children in the school system think about later start times? Are people fired up about this issue or no one knows about it or no one cares?
Tricia,
What do your friends who have children in the school system think about later start times? Are people fired up about this issue or no one knows about it or no one cares?
I always marvel at Jane’s ability to sling mud. Too bad she can’t answer a simple question. Hey, some people just have one talent. At least she’s good at it.
@Tricia– I’ve been raising the issue of high school start times since 2003. It was clear 13 years ago that there were serious negative health consequences for sleep deprived teens. Responsible leaders do not allow an issue of that magnitude to go unaddressed for more than a decade. As a community, we deserve better than that. Our children deserve better than that. And my personal expectations of public officials is a lot higher than that.
Is changing high school start times a little “complicated”? Yes! “Doable”? Absolutely! But the part that’s missing from your assessment is action. When should we expect action?
Literally tens of thousands of Newton teens have been unnecessarily exposed to stress and depression resulting from sleep deprivation. That’s because, stress and depression are often not as visible as offensive graffiti. If it were not such an insidious problem, and manifested itself in more visible ways, the public would be horrified.
The School Committee has grossly miscalculated the urgency of change required by the severity of this problem. And there is no indication that they are prepared to make a change to high school start times. So I am simply pointing out that there is one elected official, the Mayor, who holds in his hand the ability to bring about this change.
And you ask, quite rightfully, “what is accomplished by the Mayor decreeing what time a building opens and closes if it doesn’t match the hours that teachers and students are there?” But you’re asking the wrong question. The right question is, what would happen if the Mayor used the power I’ve suggested he has, to effectuate change? “Fix it, or I’ll fix it.” That’s what the Mayor should be saying to the School Committee. This issue would be resolved in 5 minutes, and the School Committee and School Department would start implementing the change.
I always marvel at Jane’s ability to sling mud. Too bad she can’t answer a simple question. Hey, some people just have one talent. At least she’s good at it.
@Tricia– I’ve been raising the issue of high school start times since 2003. It was clear 13 years ago that there were serious negative health consequences for sleep deprived teens. Responsible leaders do not allow an issue of that magnitude to go unaddressed for more than a decade. As a community, we deserve better than that. Our children deserve better than that. And my personal expectations of public officials is a lot higher than that.
Is changing high school start times a little “complicated”? Yes! “Doable”? Absolutely! But the part that’s missing from your assessment is action. When should we expect action?
Literally tens of thousands of Newton teens have been unnecessarily exposed to stress and depression resulting from sleep deprivation. That’s because, stress and depression are often not as visible as offensive graffiti. If it were not such an insidious problem, and manifested itself in more visible ways, the public would be horrified.
The School Committee has grossly miscalculated the urgency of change required by the severity of this problem. And there is no indication that they are prepared to make a change to high school start times. So I am simply pointing out that there is one elected official, the Mayor, who holds in his hand the ability to bring about this change.
And you ask, quite rightfully, “what is accomplished by the Mayor decreeing what time a building opens and closes if it doesn’t match the hours that teachers and students are there?” But you’re asking the wrong question. The right question is, what would happen if the Mayor used the power I’ve suggested he has, to effectuate change? “Fix it, or I’ll fix it.” That’s what the Mayor should be saying to the School Committee. This issue would be resolved in 5 minutes, and the School Committee and School Department would start implementing the change.
Mike, I totally agree with your point that if the Mayor made school start times a priority and said he expects action now, they would find a way to work out all the logistics now. No more studies – they’ve been done. No more consultants and working groups – meet with the essential parties and set the change in motion. It’s as if they are looking for the one perfect way to please everyone but that doesn’t exist. Make a good plan and try it out.
The magical thinking is that school start times will ever be changed without action in that direction. Identify a specific problem, say collective bargaining, and set the dates. Make the plan and start its execution.
Mike, I totally agree with your point that if the Mayor made school start times a priority and said he expects action now, they would find a way to work out all the logistics now. No more studies – they’ve been done. No more consultants and working groups – meet with the essential parties and set the change in motion. It’s as if they are looking for the one perfect way to please everyone but that doesn’t exist. Make a good plan and try it out.
The magical thinking is that school start times will ever be changed without action in that direction. Identify a specific problem, say collective bargaining, and set the dates. Make the plan and start its execution.
Thank you, Martibowen. You clearly get my point. I want to thank everyone else for their supportive comments, Tom Sheff and Neal Fleisher in particular. I also appreciate Greg’s indulgence, for letting me have my say. We all have to step up as a community and insist on this change. Public pressure is the only way it’s going to happen.
Thank you, Martibowen. You clearly get my point. I want to thank everyone else for their supportive comments, Tom Sheff and Neal Fleisher in particular. I also appreciate Greg’s indulgence, for letting me have my say. We all have to step up as a community and insist on this change. Public pressure is the only way it’s going to happen.
Adolescent mental health is a very complex topic…no one denies the importance of sleep, but there are other major factors, including physical exercise and social connections. Teens gain social connections and exercise from school sports and participation in theater and other after-school clubs and activities. If we change school start times without considering the possible disruption to these important teen activities, we might create new mental health problems. And then there’s Tricia’s point about the teacher contract. I support later start times, but I support thinking through all the implications first.
Adolescent mental health is a very complex topic…no one denies the importance of sleep, but there are other major factors, including physical exercise and social connections. Teens gain social connections and exercise from school sports and participation in theater and other after-school clubs and activities. If we change school start times without considering the possible disruption to these important teen activities, we might create new mental health problems. And then there’s Tricia’s point about the teacher contract. I support later start times, but I support thinking through all the implications first.
Rhanna:
Starting later, does not mean you can’t have exercise in schools or social clubs. It doesn’t take years of planning to implement something like this. No one says we shouldn’t think through all the implications. What people are objecting to is the snail’s pace with which this thinking is taking place. This should take about a week of intensive discussion to vet the issues.How much of an issue it is with collective bargaining, we won’t know until we talk about it with the union.
There is obviously a lack of urgency on the part of the school committee, superintendent, and the mayor. This in the end becomes a political issue. These elected and appointed individuals are betting the public isn’t that concerned about the issue. They are probably right, but if they are wrong, it could end up costing them their position.
Adolescent health is complex, but the overwhelming evidence to date indicates sleep deprivation is not healthy and has potential major implications for some adolescents.
Your comments about it reminds me of those who argue against doing anything about global warming; saying we need to look at all the implications before acting, and it too is a complex issue.
Rhanna:
Starting later, does not mean you can’t have exercise in schools or social clubs. It doesn’t take years of planning to implement something like this. No one says we shouldn’t think through all the implications. What people are objecting to is the snail’s pace with which this thinking is taking place. This should take about a week of intensive discussion to vet the issues.How much of an issue it is with collective bargaining, we won’t know until we talk about it with the union.
There is obviously a lack of urgency on the part of the school committee, superintendent, and the mayor. This in the end becomes a political issue. These elected and appointed individuals are betting the public isn’t that concerned about the issue. They are probably right, but if they are wrong, it could end up costing them their position.
Adolescent health is complex, but the overwhelming evidence to date indicates sleep deprivation is not healthy and has potential major implications for some adolescents.
Your comments about it reminds me of those who argue against doing anything about global warming; saying we need to look at all the implications before acting, and it too is a complex issue.
Rhanna, absolutely no one is advocating changing to later start times “without considering the possible disruptions.”
I don’t see that anyone has disputed anything you say. That there are many factors in teen depression has been discussed and agreed upon many times in many places and no one here has said that later start times will eradicate every cause of teen depression or suicide. It will not even eradicate all sleep deprivation. But it is at least action toward reducing a major factor. Plans to work on reducing other causes and stressors are being put into action; this one needs to be too.
In addition no one is questioning the need to address all of the pertinent disruptions that changing start times will bring about for all essential parties, not just students. The thing is that “thinking through all of the implications” has already been done. We know what needs to be done. Union contracts need to be negotiated – set a time to meet and start the negotiations. That would be a good place to start as they are essential to making it work. At least set a date to see what the possibilities are.
The talking and studying has been done. Not everyone will be happy with the outcome. There is no perfect option for everyone. It is time for action. School surveys are not action. Listening to consultants is not action. Working groups by their very definition are not action. Action is making a decision, acknowledging that it will be unpopular with some, but doing what it takes to put it in place because it is the right thing to do.
I think that is the major holdup – making a decision that will be the best one for students but will have opposition from some adults.
Anyone continuing to say “I support later high school start times, BUT …” is not helping to solve the problem, similar to a partner who continues to say, “I am sorry, BUT …”
It is a parent or teacher saying to a child, “I want you to be happy and healthy, BUT …” It doesn’t matter how that sentence is completed, the BUT negates what came before it. Psychology 101.
@Neal writes:
@Marti writes:
Actually Mike Striar has been saying exactly that.
@Rhanna: Great comment.
Rhanna, absolutely no one is advocating changing to later start times “without considering the possible disruptions.”
I don’t see that anyone has disputed anything you say. That there are many factors in teen depression has been discussed and agreed upon many times in many places and no one here has said that later start times will eradicate every cause of teen depression or suicide. It will not even eradicate all sleep deprivation. But it is at least action toward reducing a major factor. Plans to work on reducing other causes and stressors are being put into action; this one needs to be too.
In addition no one is questioning the need to address all of the pertinent disruptions that changing start times will bring about for all essential parties, not just students. The thing is that “thinking through all of the implications” has already been done. We know what needs to be done. Union contracts need to be negotiated – set a time to meet and start the negotiations. That would be a good place to start as they are essential to making it work. At least set a date to see what the possibilities are.
The talking and studying has been done. Not everyone will be happy with the outcome. There is no perfect option for everyone. It is time for action. School surveys are not action. Listening to consultants is not action. Working groups by their very definition are not action. Action is making a decision, acknowledging that it will be unpopular with some, but doing what it takes to put it in place because it is the right thing to do.
I think that is the major holdup – making a decision that will be the best one for students but will have opposition from some adults.
Anyone continuing to say “I support later high school start times, BUT …” is not helping to solve the problem, similar to a partner who continues to say, “I am sorry, BUT …”
It is a parent or teacher saying to a child, “I want you to be happy and healthy, BUT …” It doesn’t matter how that sentence is completed, the BUT negates what came before it. Psychology 101.
@Neal writes:
@Marti writes:
Actually Mike Striar has been saying exactly that.
@Rhanna: Great comment.
Greg, I think that Mike, who can clearly speak for himself, is saying, as am I, that those implications have been, not only thought through, but discussed, surveyed, and talked about for years.
Without moving forward on at least one thing, such as making a decision to move forward and setting deadlines to implement changes, not just saying it will not be before 2017, if ever, or setting dates to meet with union representatives to see where they stand and what negotiations might look like. That would be making progress.
It’s this continuing to do nothing but thinking and talking for years, that is causing the frustration that leads to extreme solutions being presented, which in turn leads to not addressing solutions but calling out the hyperbole and the extremes. Instead, it would be more productive, but not as much fun for you, if you addressed the action that could be taken, since you support later high school start times …
Greg, I think that Mike, who can clearly speak for himself, is saying, as am I, that those implications have been, not only thought through, but discussed, surveyed, and talked about for years.
Without moving forward on at least one thing, such as making a decision to move forward and setting deadlines to implement changes, not just saying it will not be before 2017, if ever, or setting dates to meet with union representatives to see where they stand and what negotiations might look like. That would be making progress.
It’s this continuing to do nothing but thinking and talking for years, that is causing the frustration that leads to extreme solutions being presented, which in turn leads to not addressing solutions but calling out the hyperbole and the extremes. Instead, it would be more productive, but not as much fun for you, if you addressed the action that could be taken, since you support later high school start times …
Well, what now?? Online petition? Regular petition?
I love this SC, but it’s obvious that they aren’t doing anything further on this issue and the Mayor has had 11 years to do something and hasn’t, so I think it’s safe to say he won’t do anything….whats next??
Well, what now?? Online petition? Regular petition?
I love this SC, but it’s obvious that they aren’t doing anything further on this issue and the Mayor has had 11 years to do something and hasn’t, so I think it’s safe to say he won’t do anything….whats next??
I’m willing to do the legwork.
I’m willing to do the legwork.
@Greg– I’m surprised you’d suggest that I’m not in favor of considering the issues associated with changing start times. All of those issues have been articulated numerous times. The issue of early morning start times in Newton has been kicked around for more than a decade by 5 successive School Committees. The school system just completed a public forum on changing start times and the scheduling issues associated with it, before deciding to take no action yet again. So what I object to is public officials continuing to kick the can down the road, doing absolutely nothing to bring relief to these students. To me, that’s shameful, and reflects very poorly on the leadership capabilities of the Mayor as well as School Committee members.
@Greg– I’m surprised you’d suggest that I’m not in favor of considering the issues associated with changing start times. All of those issues have been articulated numerous times. The issue of early morning start times in Newton has been kicked around for more than a decade by 5 successive School Committees. The school system just completed a public forum on changing start times and the scheduling issues associated with it, before deciding to take no action yet again. So what I object to is public officials continuing to kick the can down the road, doing absolutely nothing to bring relief to these students. To me, that’s shameful, and reflects very poorly on the leadership capabilities of the Mayor as well as School Committee members.
@Tom– We agree that the School Committee is clearly not up to the task of changing high school start times. But as I’ve stated, one elected official holds an immediate solution to this problem in his hand… Mayor Warren. I believe concerned parents should focus their efforts on getting Mayor Warren to use the bully pulpit of his office, and the powers granted him under the Charter, to bring about this change. I’m convinced that enough pressure on the Mayor to change high school start times, will cause him to initiate that change.
@Tom– We agree that the School Committee is clearly not up to the task of changing high school start times. But as I’ve stated, one elected official holds an immediate solution to this problem in his hand… Mayor Warren. I believe concerned parents should focus their efforts on getting Mayor Warren to use the bully pulpit of his office, and the powers granted him under the Charter, to bring about this change. I’m convinced that enough pressure on the Mayor to change high school start times, will cause him to initiate that change.
Mike- On issues like this the Mayor leads from behind. He doesn’t care about the health of the children. he cares that it doesn’t hurt him politically, so he probably needs to see that he would be in the majority. Maybe an online petition or letter/email writing campaign??? I’d be surprised if he did it on his own volition.
Mike- On issues like this the Mayor leads from behind. He doesn’t care about the health of the children. he cares that it doesn’t hurt him politically, so he probably needs to see that he would be in the majority. Maybe an online petition or letter/email writing campaign??? I’d be surprised if he did it on his own volition.
There is an event at on Wednesday, April 6 7:00-8:30PM in the Brown Middle School Auditorium. Everyone who has not gone should go. A physician and Newton parent, who is an expert will talk about the evidence. Also, we have a lot of information at newtonhighschools.com Please sign up for our email list.
Someone name a school district that switched to a later start time, regretted it, and switched back! Good luck.
Rhanna. We are never going to think through every possible ramification. We have to make the decision first and figure out how to make it work. Even if there are some glitches the first year, our kids’ health is worth it. This is a time for decisiveness.
The medical evidence is unambiguous. When schools switch, the evidence tells us that mental health issues go down, car accidents go down, test scores go up, substance abuse goes down, schools performance goes up, and tardiness goes down. You can’t make this stuff up.
To say that we should not make the switch until we think through everything because we might make new mental issues, is equivalent to saying you that, despite the evidence, you should not quit smoking, because when you quit you might start some other habit that is worse. On average, later school times are associated with better well being. What else do we need to know?
There is an event at on Wednesday, April 6 7:00-8:30PM in the Brown Middle School Auditorium. Everyone who has not gone should go. A physician and Newton parent, who is an expert will talk about the evidence. Also, we have a lot of information at newtonhighschools.com Please sign up for our email list.
Someone name a school district that switched to a later start time, regretted it, and switched back! Good luck.
Rhanna. We are never going to think through every possible ramification. We have to make the decision first and figure out how to make it work. Even if there are some glitches the first year, our kids’ health is worth it. This is a time for decisiveness.
The medical evidence is unambiguous. When schools switch, the evidence tells us that mental health issues go down, car accidents go down, test scores go up, substance abuse goes down, schools performance goes up, and tardiness goes down. You can’t make this stuff up.
To say that we should not make the switch until we think through everything because we might make new mental issues, is equivalent to saying you that, despite the evidence, you should not quit smoking, because when you quit you might start some other habit that is worse. On average, later school times are associated with better well being. What else do we need to know?
at the risk of un-hijacking this thread, i am strongly against starting school before labor day and have no issue with the current vacation layout….
at the risk of un-hijacking this thread, i am strongly against starting school before labor day and have no issue with the current vacation layout….
I was informed last night that Newton had recently lost another high school student. I was unaware of this latest tragedy when posting all my comments above. I’d read nothing about this in the TAB or on the local blogs, and my own children are well past high school age, leaving me out of touch with current news.
My heart weeps for a young life lost and for the family she left behind. And I feel the same way about the other young people we’ve lost in recent years. It has never been–and will never be, my intention to exploit other people’s pain or tragedy in an attempt to fuel the change I’m advocating. I would simply urge everyone to take a step back, and evaluate those things we may be able to do in order to relieve student stress in substantive and meaningful ways.
I’ll refrain from commenting on this thread any further.
I was informed last night that Newton had recently lost another high school student. I was unaware of this latest tragedy when posting all my comments above. I’d read nothing about this in the TAB or on the local blogs, and my own children are well past high school age, leaving me out of touch with current news.
My heart weeps for a young life lost and for the family she left behind. And I feel the same way about the other young people we’ve lost in recent years. It has never been–and will never be, my intention to exploit other people’s pain or tragedy in an attempt to fuel the change I’m advocating. I would simply urge everyone to take a step back, and evaluate those things we may be able to do in order to relieve student stress in substantive and meaningful ways.
I’ll refrain from commenting on this thread any further.
Not that I am active in Newton any longer, but I didn’t hear that. My deepest condolences to the family.
Not that I am active in Newton any longer, but I didn’t hear that. My deepest condolences to the family.