A few weeks back, the Lion’s Roar, Newton South’s student newspaper, printed this editorial about the Austin St development.
This past week Isabelle Albeck from The Newton Village Alliance responded with this letter to the editor, strenuously objecting to the Lion’s Roar’s characterization of the NVA and asked for an apology.
Was the Lions Roar article fair? Do you think NVA is owed an apology
I generally haven’t been a supporter of the NVA’s positions but I did find the Lion’s Roar editorial to be unfair. Criticizing the NVA’s unyielding no-development stance is fair game. Criticizing the organization and its leaderships motivation …
is definitely a bit unfair.
While I have indeed heard disturbing comments made by a few NVA supporters, I don’t believe its fair to paint the entire NVA, its leadership, or its supporter with that brush. There are plenty of perfectly reasonable reasons that folks may be against the Austin St or other development projects.
@Jerry. My sentiments as well.
Any time a leader of a group speaks publicly they implicitly represent the view of the group with whom they are affiliated. In the case of NVA, at the very least Kathleen Kouril Grieser has on more than one occasion made statements quite consistent with the sentiments described in the TLR piece. As such, the pierce is more than fair.
TLR piece is so well written and to the point that it makes one wonder from whom and suspicious of authorship. Might there be plagiarism afoot? I am not a member and would not be a member of NVA, but residing in Newtonville feel the Austin lot should be developed/improved but not within the confines of a bad business deal.
I also believe that certain NVA leaders, perhaps, did more harm than good by throwing the group support to certain candidates, contra endorsements are difficult to shake – how does a candidate say ‘thanks, but no thanks’ and still maintain the facade of ‘weism’?
TLR continues to assert that it’s within its journalistic rights to have posted this, but I don’t know if that’s true, especially if there were outside forces that “helped” write this piece. With litigation against Austin Street in progress, a good lawyer will be able to find out more through discovery. Undoubtedly, many good Newton residents were defamed by this piece.
As a Newton resident who 1) does not support the current Austin Street proposal but who 2) grew up in public housing and on welfare in Newton and 3) has more skin in the social justice game than most, the bottom line is that this piece is offensive.
If students in Newton are being lead to believe that Austin Street or similar developments should be supported for social justice or diversity implications, we’ve got a serious problem in our community. If students in Newton are being lead to believe that our city government should be investing very limited public resources into subsidizing housing for individuals or families who have healthy incomes by any reasonable definition, we are teaching our kids the opposite of what I was taught as a kid in Newton, which was to do everything in your power to help those who need your help the most.
Out of curiosity, did TLR write about Mayor Warren unilaterally shutting down Engine 6? If not, why? Unlike Austin Street, that was a project specifically designed to help those in dire need.
@Tom – you really expect consistency from a student newspaper whose staff completely turns over every 4 years? Why are today’s TLR staff responsible for what was written by a different group of students a few years ago?
@Harry – it’s sad that when gifted student produces good writing, people assume it must be plagiarism. More likely, in my experience, is that a student got passionate about this issue and wrote something very good, and got some help with editing it (just as professional writers are allowed and expected to do).
I read both and see nothing that requires an apology. The original TLR editorial perhaps could have sourced the “wrong kind of people” bit, which I suspect originates from the “import poor people” Coulter-speak from the NVA Tab editorial, but other than that (and if that is the source) I see nothing wrong with them coming away with that impression.
I, too, find it disconcerting that some like Harry automatically assume good writing to be of suspicious provenance (I wrote that sentence myself btw – no thesaurus!). A school paper should be attracting the best writers from among nearly 2,000 students, with (presumably) added guidance from faculty.
(edited because I originally wrote “Tom” when I meant “Harry.” Dick is also free to comment to complete that meme).
@Doug. Tom, Dick and Harry. It took me a moment to catch that.
Hi, I’m a first time writer, my name is Dick. No jokes please.
I agree with 100% with Doug. This was well written and it needs no apology. The NVA can dish it out, but they can’t take it.
Plagiarism on the grounds that the pice is well written? Absolutely absurd. The level of writing was what we should be expecting for students at our high schools.
Tom, you write:
“TLR continues to assert that it’s within its journalistic rights to have posted this, but I don’t know if that’s true, especially if there were outside forces that “helped” write this piece. With litigation against Austin Street in progress, a good lawyer will be able to find out more through discovery. Undoubtedly, many good Newton residents were defamed by this piece.”
Tom, didn’t you mentioned you were a lawyer or in law school? If you are, you should know what the definition of defamation is, the broad protections granted to even student journalists, and that any “good lawyer” wouldn’t be caught dead deposing a bunch of high school journalists to see if they got “outside help” on an editorial. Even if they did, what is the cause of action here Tom? It sounds like you are doing that thing that new lawyers do when they throw out the term “litigation” and “discovery” and “defamed” and expect folks to quake in their boots.
Newspapers have editorials. Editorials contain opinions. NVA did the exact right thing by writing a letter to the editor, which TLR published with what I’m assuming was minimal editing except for space limitations. TLR was within their rights to respond briefly to the letter.
I’d say the mature ones here are TLR, and the person who wrote the letter for NVA. The person randomly mentioning that someone should sue the high school for defamation and that we’ll find out more in discovery? Not so much.
I admit to being a bit sensitive to the subject since at one point I was editor of my high school paper many/many/many moons ago. But I’m sure there are a number of folks who are familiar with the court cases over the past 50 years on these issues to back me up.
And for the record, I thought the writing was exactly what I’d expect from a smart high school person. Well written, with some gaps in logic. The idea that mommy or daddy fed them these words is insulting to these kids. I’d have rather eaten my gym shorts than published something fed to me. I’m sure these kids are the same way. Idealistic writing does not mean they are part of some scheme to embarrass NVA (the NVA did a good enough job of that on their own when THEY wrote the newspaper column a few weeks later…IMHO).
And Bob, the Tom, Dick and Harry thing was funny.
No . Not “Plagiarism on the grounds that the ‘ pice’ (sic) is well written”. But suspected plagiarism from the point of view that the topic is so remote from the interests of students from Newton South HS. Newton North students just down the street from the Austin Street site might maybe have some skin in the game what with parking issues etc. But Students from South with such insiteful political acumen and awareness ? Who might have put them up to it, or written for them ?
Blue, there have been many many discussions/columns in the Tab, multiple articles in the Globe, about a dozen community meetings. Did you expect the students from South not to notice? Why is it so weird that they write an editorial about a major issue in their city? If anything I’m shocked Newton North’s paper DIDN’T write about it.
I thought plagiarism is not tolerated in Newton public schools.
Really?
At this point four commenter have suggested that the students plagiarized or are being manipulated by some adult ghost writer. Do you all really have such low expectations of our students? Are you all really that comfortable throwing out serious charges against these students, without even the tiniest iota of evidence, all because you think they wouldn’t be capable otherwise?
Shame on you all! These Austin St/development/NVA issues seem to be making people lose their minds.
Just pause for a second and put yourself in the shoes,of the high school author reading these,comments.
If anybody here deserves an apology it’s the,students
I think it is fair to challenge the innuendo of statements cited on the NVA website, especially when at least one of its members has made public statements calling them into question. The NVA has spoken with many voices in the past, but now is offering at least some transparency. It’s confusing that an individual should respond for the organization. If these words were interpreted unfairly, hopefully the NVA board will see fit to respond accordingly and clarify its statements.
Harry, Blueprintbill and others, I think you are the ones that ought to apologize here. Is making unfounded allegations against high school journalists your idea of integrity?
Amen to what Jerry said.
Jerry is absolutely right that we owe our students an apology. We should apologize to them for creating the delusion that Newton is only an enclave for the wealthy/privileged and that Austin Street is about social justice. In my opinion, it’s great that our students are writing about important issues. I work with Newton teens and am always amazed at how smart they are. Hopefully TLR will expand upon this and begin to investigate and write about social justice and how to make Newton a better place for those who live here in circumstances that most of our residents wouldn’t understand.
The idea that someone would sue the high school newspaper for commiting the crime of hard hitting journalism is appalling and frankly a little scary.
What is wrong with everyone here. The point of writing a letter is to raise awareness on an issue, which means talking about the issue. I have to admit, several weeks ago I was one of those people who thought someone’s parent wrote the letter….the letter is that good. Keep up the great work TLR.
No one owes anyone else an apology.
This is obviously going to pass tonight, so the way you can get retribution is find candidates to run against the incumbents in 2 years, which includes to get someone to run for Mayor….etc. Otherwise, keep complaining.
I’m a student at Newton South and very close friends with the Lions Roar editors and senior staff. I’m honestly incredibly offended at some of the comments here. The idea that their writing is so good they must be plagiarizing? Or that they’re a whole 5 miles away so they wouldn’t care? Really just ridiculous.
The editorial was written based on Kathleen Kouril Grieser’s claim about “importing poor people” and the NVA’s core principle about “ensuring stability.” The Editors didn’t claim that this was an unbiased article — it was an editorial, expressing their opinions.
The editors of the roar put a lot of work into the paper. That’s probably the reason they received the Pacemaker award at the National Scholastic Press Association conference last weekend, the most prestigious award a high school newspaper can receive (making them one of the top 5 papers in the nation). I think Newton residents should be proud of their schools, for teaching journalism so well, and their students, for working so incredibly hard to produce an amazing paper every month.
Regardless of whether or not you believe this was right, please don’t undermine the integrity of the Roar.
Thanks for weighing in Ben.
And again, the high school kids are more mature than many of us give them credit for (and if I’m putting on my snark hat for one last time, more mature than many of our posters apparently).
And Tom Sheff, I actually don’t think it will pass tonight, and I’m not sure about in a few weeks. I would be pleasantly surprised if it does.
Congrats to The Lion’s Roar!!
Hasn’t this entire conversation been had before?
Marti, deja vu all over again?
Original quote: “A recent Dukakis Center demographic study found that 1 in 8 Newton households is living on $25,000 or less a year. The study put to rest the idea that Newton needs to build units to import poor people, for they are already here and are being displaced by the radical transformation and urbanization of our villages now underway.”
The point being made is not “we need to keep poor people out of Newton in order to preserve the (ehem wealthy) ‘character’ of our neighborhoods.” It’s that low income residents are facing “devastating upheaval in their lives because” of leaders who “prioritized creating luxury units to bring more people into Newton, over caring for residents who are already here.” (quoting the original piece here)
Maybe I’m naive, but I read the NVA’s message pretty much the way it’s articulated in Ms Albeck’s letter to TLR. The thesis is that the way to have affordable housing is to preserve modestly priced properties, not with new construction that is bound to be more expensive because of building/land costs.
I’m not trying to argue the housing issue either way here. I am just pointing out that the phrase “importing poor people” is being thrown around out of context to mean something it clearly wasn’t intended to mean.
Re the TLR piece, it’s unfortunate that TLR chose to make an unfounded accusation in an opinion piece. I don’t expect a retraction, and I wouldn’t demand it. However if *I* were the editor, I would certainly make some sort of a statement acknowledging the fact that the piece was unfair in presuming NVA’s supposedly hidden motives.
@Steven: The only problem with your analysis is that it overlooks the fact that term “import poor people” is part of the Tea Party/Ann Coulter lingo which carries uglier connotations. It was at best an insensitive word choice from someone who has a masters degree from Harvard and is very careful with her words.
I’d be willing to give the author and the NVA the benefit of the doubt if they were to issue a clarification and/or apology. But here we are weeks after the fact, and we’ve seen neither. (Although they had time to demand an apology from group of high schoolers.)
BTW, if we’re going to engage in an analysis of that particular TAB op-ed column, this is the definitive analysis.
Steve,
An unfounded accusation in an opinion piece? And Kathleen Kouril Grieser’s piece in the Tab was scrupulously fair and well reasoned?
Yeah, right.
I can’t seriously consider the back-and-forth which occurs on the Village 14 Blog is the definitive analysis of anything! 😀
@Greg, I’m not getting the equation between advocating for protection of existing diverse housing stock deemed affordable, with advocating that we shut down U.S. immigration because it lets too many poor people into the country. The agendas and the context are rather different. Equating them because of one common phrase seems like a stretch.
I don’t know if that comment you link to is definitive – when I read it, plenty of rebuttals came to mind. But I don’t have time to go through it and I don’t think anyone wants me to rehash it.
@Robert, you’re comparing the (some are saying unfair) take down of a particular group of citizens criticizing public policy with the criticism of public policy itself.
My interest is in fair, rational debate so that I/we can better understand the issues. When I see personal attacks, it ruins that discourse. I think that using that phrase out of context does not further rational debate.
I have a difficult time believing that Kathleen Kouril Grieser used the phrase “import poor people” innocently. Regardless, the Lion’s Roar was completely within its rights to postulate as to what NVA’s motives are/were based on how TLR was receiving NVA’s messages. Maybe the editorial could have done a better job of explaining how the editorial staff came to their conclusions, but they owe no apologies.
I believe I’ve said this before: If NVA wasn’t prepared for someone to publicly criticize them for being elitist/xenophobic/exclusive…, they were being very naive. And it makes sense that high school kids would have the courage to do it.
Maybe she picked it up from another Harvard grad, Robert J. Samuelson, who used it back in 2007 in Newsweek. The original context was immigration:
“A second reason is that immigration affects government policy. By default, our present policy is to import poor people.”
http://www.newsweek.com/samuelson-were-missing-real-story-poverty-100093
@Ben – thank you for weighing in.
As for those who don’t believe NSHS kids could care about something happening in a different part of Newton – Newton just isn’t that big! And if kids have parents who care about what happens in Newton, they’ll have grown up hearing discussions of these issues in their homes.
When I was in junior high, I was marching in demonstrations for Student Struggle for Soviet Jewry (people considerably further from me than Austin St. is from NSHS). My parents were actively involved in advocating for improving the public schools – despite us being in the district of the best elementary school in the city. They cared about who was running for City Council. I see no reason why some of today’s high school kids shouldn’t care as much about their city as I did about mine.
Steve, Fair and Rational Debate generally requires the use of facts, not interpretations.
Unless you wrote the op-ed in the Tab or the statement on the NVA website, you are just making interpretations of vague phrases like everyone else and you have no way to know which interpretation is the correct one.
I am certain that KKG knew exactly what she was saying and that she also knew she would have so many loyal defenders, she would not have to say another word about it.
Wait – now I’m confused. The Lion’s Roar editorial is dated October 9. The TAB editorial with the “import poor people” sound bite is dated October 25. How can the former be a response to the latter? (btw – the LR editorial is well written. The leap to plagiarism is ridiculous. A hundred or so years ago, I was questioned on the originality of one of my first college essays because it was “too good”, which still annoys me. Leave the kids alone.)
John Sisson’s dissection of KKG’s column was brilliant. But “definitive” was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Sorry if that consfused anyone.
The TLR piece is written by idealistic students who have not had a dose of realism. It will be quite amusing to write a rebuttal once the well-off tenants move in. We shall see what ‘diversity’ shall come from Austin St! Ha! I’ll bet the diversity will come from rich, young European or Russian transients who don’t want to buy. Of course, the well-off are people too and deserve beautiful apartments. Social justice and all
The idealists lose their enthusiasm once they have to earn their own money and take care of their own kids. This generation, especially, will have a very hard time adjusting to reality when they realize that they will have to choose themselves over others! Imagine paying full rent at $3500 to subsidize another family on an entry level salary! Idealism loses its appeal very quickly.
Wow, Darcy, just wow. It’s hard to respond to some of your posts (“money likes money” was a classic). I only hope my sons maintain a sense of empathy and idealism so that they realize they’ve lived with privileges that others haven’t enjoyed.
@Marti, I’m struck by the irony of being told that I can’t know and shouldn’t be interpreting what KKG really meant, immediately followed by “I am certain that KKG knew exactly what she was saying”! And then Gail has “difficult time believing” that, what?… the author deliberately used a right-wing incendiary phrase when trying to persuade us that we’re hurting the types of unfortunate people described in paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 (i.e. a liberal instinct to protect less fortunate)? If she knew what she was saying and she “chooses her words carefully”, then why would she hang one right over the middle of the plate? Seems implausible to me.
The implication is that this author is using an ostensibly passionate plea for the protection of existing affordable homes as a guise for her real motivation, which is to keep undesirable people out of our precious neighborhoods. You’re right, I can’t get inside the head of the author regarding that phrase, but I generally assume the benefit of the doubt. “xenophobic/elitist…”? This is not the huff post comment section – we see these people around town – they’re someone’s neighbors and friends who have different opinions about policy.
By the way, the gist of the article refers to a lot of well-known arguments/criticisms. To pick it apart because it lacks airtight proof of every assertion, well….you could do that to most op-ed pieces. It’s a wide ranging topic and it’s hard to prove a lot of the points in either direction, especially in 750 words. The point was to persuade with a broad brush, which is the norm on opinion pages.
That’s all I have to say. Sorry if I caused a rehash of a previous thread.
@Steven –
To be clear, I was not saying that the author of the article is xenophobic/elitist,etc. My point was that an anti-development organization that touts cherishing stability in the character of Newton’s neighborhoods should be prepared for some negative accusations thrown their way. And high schoolers are more likely than most to say what they think without fear of repercussion or offending someone.
Hooray for Darcy!
@Gail thanks for clarifying.
People who clearly relish trying to tear down idealists and crush their optimism, not because they disagree with them but just to prove some point or see them give up too… boy, I don’t even know what to call them, but I’ve seen and had just about enough of it over the past decade. Without optimists nothing would ever get better in this world. What do you get out of criticizing people literally for having optimistic ideals?
I strive for realism, but I hope I never surrender my ideals or my hope for the future just because somebody gets a kick out of seeing the political light flicker out of another person’s eyes just like it once did for them.
It’s particularly disturbing to celebrate the anticipated abandonment of an entire generation’s communitarian spirit and gleefully predict their eventual prioritization of self over selflessness. If that happens, it will not be because somebody subsidized someone else’s rent. It will be because the American economy no longer pays anyone living wages, compensates productivity fairly or justly, or lifts up anybody the lower half (or more) of society. I’d rather try to hold accountable the people responsible for those policies than gloomily or cheerily await the end of idealism in a group of high schoolers.
Steve, you said:
“Marti, I’m struck by the irony of being told that I can’t know and shouldn’t be interpreting what KKG really meant, immediately followed by “I am certain that KKG knew exactly what she was saying”!”
No irony.
My “being certain KKG [the author] knew what she was saying” is different from your “interpreting what KKG [the author] really meant..”
In addition, I never said you “shouldn’t be interpreting” what was said, instead I said everyone, but the author, is interpreting and there is no way to actually know which, of many, interpretations is correct.
@Bill: Never surrender your idealism or principles for anyone. However, always strive to be an independent and analytical thinker who draws his own conclusions. If you’d like to hold accountable those responsible for driving down wages, not compensating productivity or increasing the percentage of those who live in poverty, that’s what it takes. You may disagree, but Austin Street is a good opportunity to inject some of the accountability that you mention into our local government.
When young people’s ideals cause me to lose something I actually had to work hard to earn, I most definitely find glee in seeing the light from their naive eyes extinguish. However, if a young person’s ideals are based on reality and experience and don’t negatvely affect or attempt to marginalize hardwork, I think that is fabulous!
Jane, money does like money and you know it. I have no desire to live in a low income town. Gail might think I am an elitist. Gasp!! When she moves to New Bedford, she can preach that, but now it’s just empty words. 🙂
@Darcy, I have no idea what are you talking about. What “young people’s ideals have caused you to lose something you worked hard to earn”?
Folks we have a troll in our midst, I’m going to try my best to resit tossing Darcy’s manure back because that’s exactly what trolls are hoping we’re going to do.