US New & World Report recently published their rankings of Massachusetts;’s 378 high schools.
It ranked Newton South at #36, Newton North at #41
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Any thoughts on why Newton’s high schools have lost their formerly superior status?
Thinking aloud here: we have a much higher immigrant population than we used to. I wonder if that leads to more kids in ELL and affecting our standardized test scores. Our demographics are shifting. (In a good way IMO)
I’m sure there are a lot of components, but personally I take rankings and the value of test scores with a grain of salt.
As an ELL who ended up with higher SAT verbal than math (yes i didnt get 800 math), I can assure you us immigrants are not the ones dragging down NPS perrformance. We might even be masking even graver deficiencies.
Wow, this is a very big drop. We don’t have children but when we first moved to Newton, the schools were always at the top.
Sallee:
I think there are two separate things to consider here.
1) have newton high schools had a reduction in status? Perhaps. Longer conversation.
2) Should you ignore USNews rankings? ABSOLUTELY.
It is near impossible to rank with any degree of substance or accuracy the “status” of a high school. Differences in student population, wealth of the community, ESL students, special ed students, all provide so many variables that reviewing this list is not worth your time.
You can certainly evaluate Newton high schools in other ways, and it is valuable to do so. But don’t waste your time and energy on this list.
Remember that list a few years ago that listed Newton as the safest city in America? Similar nonsense.
Don’t get me started on their “best colleges” list either.
This is an excellent perspective. NPS schools are in decline, and they have for years, *and* the US News ranks are absolute garbage that no one in education takes seriously.
For example, US News highly weights AP class taking, but NSHS limits APs to mostly seniors. The classes that 9th-11th graders take at NSHS are probably more rigorous than other schools’ “AP” classes (see NSHS’ insane, but dropping, AP pass rate as proof), but that doesn’t get factored in.
Newton Runner:
A drop from what? From prior years of this USNews report? Or from a different evaluation system?
I don’t recall Newton ever ranking consistently high in USNews.
I honestly can’t recall (been here since 1992) but I clearly remember our realtor showing us rankings where Newton Schools were #3 in the USA. These rankings may not be the full picture, but there is probably something to them.
There was one year somewhere between 2008-20015 probably @2011 where Mason-Rice was the #2 public school in the US…the first was actually a school on a military base in Germany. :). I don’t remember the exact source of the ranking.
Seriously… now we’re ranking elementary schools.. Ludicrous!!!!
For instance, and this is just one example, if a high school hosts “trade” classes, such as auto repair, plumbing or electrical work, or building trades, and offers that as a path to a career without a college education, that works to lower the ranking.
Another example, if a high school system seeks to educate its special education kids in house, those kids count against the college readiness scores, lowering the ranking. Some school districts outsource those placements and those kids aren’t included.
Another example: Every single charter school or magnet school that selects its kids. Huge advantage. Every kids who tests in has a better chance of taking AP classes. Huge advantage in the rankings.
I once did a review of this for the college rankings with someone who did a deeper dive than I’m capable of in the criteria for the rankings. It was surprising how much colleges adapted themselves to do better in the rankings when the changes did little to help the actual students on their campuses. And it was surprising how random the evaluation criteria were.
The advice from that review holds true to these types of rankings today: Don’t look at the number of the ranking, as it is meaningless nonsense, look at the statistical grouping. So being in the top 10% of schools tells you something, not much, but something. Being in the bottom 10% tells you something else. But being ranked top 10 of 400 vs top 50 of 400, not so much.
Rankings are the compilation of data. To say rankings are meaningless is to say data is meaningless. The same data may mean different things to different people, but it’s not meaningless.
I think you have to take the rankings with a grain of salt. In this case 30% of the metric is called “College Readiness” which is based on “The proportions of 12th graders who took and earned a qualifying score on at least one AP or IB exam. Earning a qualifying score is worth three times more than just taking.”. The top schools on the list have a 100% of kids taking at least 1 AP exam. There is another 10% portion of the ranking that is based on 12th graders taking more than one AP exam. In the case of Newton High Schools, I don’t feel that they offer the AP courses as earlier as other local districts. If kids are on a non college track it is likely to dilute this particular ranking. Some of the schools that rank high on the list seem to be for particular large students so in this criteria they are going to rank higher based on that student population.
“large” is supposed to be target.
So perhaps we should offer AP courses earlier as well as offer more of them. Why would that not be an acceptable path?
I am a proponent of more rigor and finding ways to challenge all students to take a step up from their status quo at any time. If you take no AP courses, lets challenge you and give you the support to take one. If you take 3, lets get you to 4 (if you want that path). If students want more, we must give them more so that they can make the most of their education. We should never do anything that would hold them back and it definitely feels like we do this at times.
Rankings are ANALYSIS of compilations of data. They are, by definition, biased by the metrics chosen to rank and how they are weighted.
Adam –
Exactly right: a compilation of data. Not the deep dive that Fignewtonville refers to. Same goes for the college rankings. A bunch of hooey that doesn’t help students find a good fit for their higher education experience.
A bunch of hooey? Im pretty sure education pedigree matters. All else equal, you would never hire a kid from south central Louisiana state university over Harvard.
You call it hooey, I say it matters a sh!tload.
We need new leaders who focus on academics. Stop defending the nonsense.
Frank D:
Not to criticize Harvard in any way, but I actually be more inclined to hire a smart and hungry kid from a state school than just any Harvard grad. But that’s a conversation for another day.
I was making a bit of a joke. SCLSU is a fictional school from The Waterboy! (5 points to whoever got that…go Mud Dogs!)
Point is, i think where you go to school does matter. Largely, perhaps not you, employers do weight school as a factor in hiring. Largely, Harvard does offer a better education than a state school. there are always exceptions, obviously. And i personally am not a harvard fan. Swap their name with BU, Tufts, BC, MIT, whatever. I would never say harvard kids are smarter than state school kids, because thats not true. Simply that it is one (meaningful) factor considered by employers.
LOL. Completely missed that. Wasn’t Henry Winkler the coach in that movie?
I think I’ve seen all of the Adam Sandler movies with one of my kids, but I get them confused. (the movies, not my kids).
But that was a sneaky good reference.
And in parting:
“YOU CAN DO IT!”
Starting with this comment, I am unable to read the conversation as the column width limits it to two or three letters at a time. Can we please go back to a format that allows for easy reading? Is there a fix for this? I have been avoiding V14 for this reson.
Maybe if the NN principal didn’t spend the pandemic writing a book and doing podcasts with Kathy Lopez the ranking wouldn’t be a pitiful 41. Guess he/him/they changed the direction of the school and the ‘narrative’ simultaneously. Great work. I can’t wait for the pro override people to knock on my door. Gonna be fun.
You don’t have to take my word for it:
https://www.npr.org/2021/10/16/1046779479/best-schools-rankings-are-meaningless-and-harmful-critic-says
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/why-high-school-rankings-are-meaningless-and-harmful/276122/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/09/12/us-news-changed-way-it-ranks-colleges-its-still-ridiculous/
If folks are interested in a deeper dive into the business of high school and college rankings, the above articles go into further detail. I can also break down the criteria used by USNews, but I doubted anyone would read my ramblings.
(And to Adam, yes, the rankings use, in part, real data that has value as data points. But without context, that data is meaningless for how USNews is using it, except for entertainment value. It doesn’t matter for their intended audience consuming the rankings and the business purpose USNews is using it for. USNews just want folks to discuss it, click on the links, etc. Similar to Boston Magazine’s “best” lists of doctors/lawyers/powerful etc. And they know parents, looking for validation or excuses to criticize, will gladly consume the “product” )
And so, I’m sure folks will use the rankings as a means to push whatever agenda they want…(as evidenced by this thread)
“This principal is bad, Newton schools were so much better… when I went there… when my kids went there… when that article came out in the 1970s we were the best (probably written by some cherub faced intern at some publication that compared wealthy school districts by college admissions or some such nonsense”). And so on.
But it told us very little back in the day and it tells us little now. And I say that as someone who has been frustrated with the school system in Newton, and has been very frustrated over the past few years with Covid response. But if I’m going to criticize, I’ll do it on the things the school system actually screws up, and not take the bait when these meaningless rankings slot my kid’s high school 41st vs 14th.
With all that said, I’m super excited to live in the safest city in the entire United States! Or was that last year? And in the state with one of the best beaches in the US! Or was that two years ago?
All fun to read. Just don’t use them as a guide for what needs to change about our school system, any more than you’d use Boston Magazine to pick your doctor or lawyer (please don’t do that either).
Fignewtonville – you seem to have a dim view of parents, in your caricature of them falling into a US News marketing trap of depending on a magazine for validation. Conversely, I’ve found the parents of Newton to be thoughtful and intelligent people, who understand what the rankings do and don’t convey, and can make their own judgements without being told what they should and shouldn’t pay attention to.
Adam, I don’t have a dim view of parents, nor was I making a caricature of them. If you don’t agree with me, you can just say so without the snark. I do appreciate your attempt to distract from my argument by insinuating that I was somehow talking down to Newton parents or demeaning them. Certainly don’t think I was doing that.
People can certainly make their own judgements on a whole host of topics, including rankings. I posted three articles to start my post that I thought would be helpful reading on the subject. Based on various online conversations here and elsewhere, it certainly seems like at least some parents are placing some faith in these rankings as having significant meaning. Even the most thoughtful and intelligent people can put their faith in the wrong data, or in data that is presented in a false or leading way. And many folks still remember U.S. News and World Report as a news magazine of some importance, just like folks remember Time and Newsweek the same way.
Also, this is a online forum for posting opinions. I posted mine, and tried to back it up with more accomplished and wiser folks from NPR, the Atlantic, and the Washington Post. If you disagree with what I posted, happy to engage in a conversation, without snark or insults.
I did disagree with what you posted, but you don’t sound happy to engage in a conversation. I took your comment that parents look to US News for validation at face value, and responded to it. That’s not snark. If what you said isn’t what you meant, just be more thoughtful next time. Nobody’s perfect.
Adam B. I think I’ll let my comments stand on their own, and not engage in this back and forth with you about whether I was being thoughtful or not when I made them. Have a good night!
Why do you think people who write for NPR are smarter or more accomplished than most Newton residents.
They arent. Sorry.
Frank D: I don’t. It was one of three articles posted. And nowhere did I say that NPR is smarter or more accomplished than most Newton residents. I said NPR was smarter and more accomplished than ME. As in my opinion is just my opinion, but here are three examples of folks wiser than me to back it up. Hope that clears that up.
And if you are a conservative more than a liberal, my recollection is that plenty of conservative commentators have criticized the college system’s reliance of national rankings to move policy. I found those three articles in a simple google search, nothing more.
I hate as many conservatives as i do liberals. Everyone sucks equally.
I want my kids to get the best education I can give them. Should I move to Westwood or Needham or fight to fix Newton? Today i choose fight. Hopefully we aren’t a lost cause but the trend is not good.
I like to see how students do on standardized tests and use that data to assess school performance. I also think the dropping academic standards across NPS are a big problem. Having said that… I think the US News ranking is silly, for a few reasons:
(a) What’s their methodology?
(b) How exactly do you compare high school across the United States?
(c) How do you account for wildly different rankings in different publications? For example, according to Boston Magazine, Newton North is #24 in MA. Niche.com says #6. US News says #41.
If a parent and prospective homeowner is using these rankings as a metric, even a broad one, I’d say what Newton has to worry about is that we are now ranked lower then Needham and Arlington.
Decades ago, when we were looking Arlington was significantly cheaper than Newton partly because it had a reputation (somewhat backed by data) of great Elementary schools, but not so great middle and high schools. So buy your starter house there, and then relocate when your kids are older.
Needham property is cheaper then Newton and literally on our border.
With Massachusett’s housing shortage, it may be a rising tide lifts all boats (But Newton less than some others), or it could be that we’re about see property value stagnation as the perceived value of our public schooling drops against more affordable (not affordable, just more affordable than Newton) communities.
/as always, a personal statement
Spot on. Bad schools, even by perception, will reduce demand.
I do not want us to become Cambridge or Somerville, that would be a disaster. We need better schools, focussed on academics, and leaders who want to reverse our current course.
Anne:
If you want to use the rankings for that purpose, wouldn’t you also want to take into account that Newton North beat both Needham and Arlington as STEM high schools, with Newton South Close behind. USNews ranked Newton North as the 118th best STEM High school in the nation…
If you compare the various methods used, the scorecard puts a lot of emphasis on the percentage of kids taking at least one AP exam, and passing at least one AP exam. Passing is a score of 3 or above…This “college readiness” concept accounted for 30% of the total score. Considering how close the rankings are, a few percentages in students taking AP tests would swing a school 10 rankings more or less.
The date used was an average of 2016-17, 2017-18, and 2018-2019 years. Due to Covid, they couldn’t get or use more current data. They aren’t even using current data, or one year’s data. 2016-2017 seems like a lifetime ago…
(on a random note, I’d also like to point out that USNews is selling its services as a college data provider for only $39.95 on its website. Or you can partner with their exclusive consultant Crimson Education for admissions consulting. The synergy is strong!)
Let’s be honest…data can be twisted into ANY narrative.
“Last season, I led this team in ninth-inning doubles in the month of August!”
– Jack Elliot, “Mr. Baseball”
As a singular data point, the US News rankings does not mean much, but combined with declining test scores, poor handling of Covid, late high school start times, flight to private schools (“the Great Examination?”), a Principle who’s hawking his $1,000 book like a cross between Tony Robbins and QVC, and most importantly…the general perception that NPS is falling behind peer districts…it all paints a picture that has both parents and home owners concerned!!
As the old saying goes, “perception is reality” and cumulatively, all signs point to a need for leadership changes and realignment in priorities to return NPS to its former glory in Massachusetts’ school heirarchy.
In light of so many mental health and other challenges facing them, I certainly hope that students will overcome their elders’ obsession with the ratings/testing industrial complex.
I’ve taught in three school systems, all of which were considered to be highly ranked. Yet, the conversation among the current group of parents at any given time (over decades) has always been the same: the schools aren’t what they used to be. If you read the Brookline School Discussion group right now, they’re saying the exact same thing about their schools – that they were much better in the past. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Jane, just curious here, and feel free not to respond. Has class size increased over the years since the beginning of your school career? A teacher friend of mine points to that as a major change, but in a different state.
@Fig
You’re missing the forest through the trees. Is the methodology perfect? No. Can small differences in data make a difference of 5-10 spots in the rankings? Sure.
Are you actually saying that Newton is one of the best high schools in the state and that USNews has that wrong?
That’s what matters. The rest is noise.
PS I’m the one who requested this post, and as I hit submit on the request was thinking that you’d post exactly what you did.
PPS “Has Newton schools had a reduction in status? Perhaps?” 1) Why the weird wording of reduction in status? Why not just simple “decline” as the descriptor? 2) You say its a longer conversation. This is the time to have it. People are concerned about Newton schools.
Ranking aside we should be concerned with what is going on in our High Schools right now. A lot was lost due to covid and our extended remote learning. Poor decisions and planning (Aug 2020 hybrid plan without engaging stakeholders and addressing potential roadblocks to implementation, building HVAC upgrade project not start until October 2020) have put our kids in a position behind many peers in neighboring districts. I am hearing first hand from my older high schooler what was lost in regards to learning and it is significant. Thank goodness we are able to address the situation with outside resources (private school reclass). Unfortunately others may not have the same resources and do not have the time to make up that loss as their high school careers are heading to an end. That child’s peers are telling them that homework and rigor is not what it used to be. I feel Newton South in particular has lived off its reputation of rigor and similar to the covid grades I feel it is only a matter of time that a real picture is out there. My two kids have completely different needs. My younger high schooler is still in NP.S Since they are a strong student and have clear goals, I hope they are able to pursue the path they hope to and aren’t stymied by decision made by NPS that limit their competitiveness vs their peers.
Many HS parents I know, if asked would not recommend moving to Newton for the schools. There is a belief that Newton is”different” and sometimes the policies implemented may make sense in theory but just don’t in practice, ie the yearly gpa instead of a cumulative one, etc. They are also incredibly slow to change course and have up to this point not seemed to put in place measures to gain meaningful feedback.
I am upbeat about the new School Committee and potential of a new Superintendent but since my kids only have 2 more years in high school I don’t think I will be around to feel the benefits of any positive changes that may occur. The new SC members seem to be asking the right questions and not just rubber stamping the Information provided to them. That body needed some critical thinkers. It is important to acknowledge mistakes and negative consequences of decisions so that things can be made better for our kids.
Alec:
LOL. And if I had to predict, I would have certainly predicted you’d post a response about my posts!
I get your point. In my defense, I’ll just say that the thread is on USNews rankings that came out. That is what I posted about. It was my personal opinion that it was worth noting that journalists from various publications have criticized the rankings, and I think it was worth noting that a large part of the rankings data set is based on data from 2016-spring 2020. I wasn’t aiming for the wider discussion in my post. As I said it is a much larger conversation.
To briefly finish up on the rankings aspect, part of it is personal for me. I did some college advising when I was a much younger person, and time and again I saw young high schoolers make decisions on where to go to school based in huge measure on rankings from USNews. It was hard to ignore the status and ego boost from a “ranked” school. And in following up with them over the years, a lot of them regretted that, or mentioned that they wish they had considered other factors more heavily. First quartile, top 25 vs top 50 schools, picking a large school with a better ranking vs a small school that they actually liked better on the visit. So much angst over the rankings, and often against self-interest and fit. And then you talk to the admissions folks at the colleges, and learn how much energy they put into improving their rankings in some very counterproductive ways, how frustrated they were by it. Granted, this was quite some time ago. But nothing I have read since has made me feel that this system of ranking schools was a positive endeavor for the kids or schools involved. And I can think of far less potential gain for ranking high schools and middle schools, especially on a national basis. At least high school seniors have a choice where to apply and it is a “data point” as some folks have pointed out above.
One example: about 1/3 of the high school rankings are based on the percentage of at least one AP test taken and passed with a 3 or above (you get some benefit just for having kids take the class and not pass the test, which also makes no sense to me). Do we really think that it improves the school district to push kids in non-honors or advanced classes to take one AP test? Just one? Should they be enrolled even if they won’t pass the test?
You asked me a question, and I’ll try to briefly give my opinion on it, because I think it is important and I think this is the more important question anyway.
“Are you actually saying that Newton is one of the best high schools in the state and that USNews has that wrong?”
So USNews ranks Newton high schools something like 36th and 41st in Massachusetts out of 378 schools total. So it is saying that even in these rankings, it is part of the roughly top 10% of high school programs in the state. I’d say that is accurate overall in terms of a general level (top 10% versus top 30% vs bottom 50%). And that includes the magnet schools and charter schools, that can somewhat select to outright select their kids.
And I say that for our highest performing students, it is even better than that. For the kids in the honors and AP class tracks, it ranks equal with the best high schools in the state. I have no idea how to rank them for those kids, but there are a ton of AP classes, excellent teachers in those classes, and a lot of advanced work. My neighbor’s kids have consistently told me that high school as a AP/honors student at North was harder than college. And they went to excellent schools (and the rankings agree!). This is just my personal opinion based on my own kid and my friend’s kids. They’ve gotten into good colleges, they have taken some amazing electives that my high school would only dreamed of having, they’ve gotten good advising, played on some state champion caliber sports teams. Has it been perfect, for my kid or their kids? Nope. Disappointing in some ways? Yes. Less rigorous than private school. Yes in 9th grade, much less so later on for the honors kids.
So to answer your question, I still think Newton has one of the best high school systems in the state, especially for those kids mentioned above, where it is equal to the very best.
Where I think it needs improvement is for the kids struggling to keep up, and the kids who could match those honors/AP kids but are not being pushed to do so. But I think that has been a consistent issue with public high schools in my experience as both a tutor and college advisor. Many of the kids I worked with blossomed in college and post-college. One of my kids I think will do the same. And it is hard for larger classrooms and college type scheduling (E block, WIN block, T Block, etc.) to keep up with those kids. And if you look at the state testing statistics, I’d want the reading and math scores to be higher. That 20% of kids that aren’t proficient, I can’t say I think it is one of the top high schools in the state for those kids. Because they aren’t succeeding.
One of my kids has a learning disability. And I know I am biased, but I think the kid is brilliant. Witty. Struggles in school, yes. But sharp as a tack. The Newton schools has consistently told me that their job isn’t to maximize potential for students like that. “That isn’t the law” they say. It is to get students like that a baseline education, no matter what the potential. And if I am going to criticize our school system, my personal criticism is that too much of that occurs, especially for the kids not in the honors classes, smart enough to get by but not excel and especially in what my neighbor calls the “great lost middle” of the Newton schools. I’d like the high schools to do better to maximize potential for those kids as well.
These are just my opinions and my data set is admittedly limited. But I don’t think my view is pollyanna-ish or falsely positive. And I’ve spent a lot of time and energy on this forum criticizing the school system, especially the special education portion of it. These are excellent high schools in many ways. I’m not able to easily judge them based on the past, so perhaps you are correct in that I’m not seeing the forest for the trees since I’m giving up on that past potential (which may or may not have existed in reality vs nostalgia).
A few points to close: I’ve been posting less here on things like development because at some point I think we’ve all said what we have to say, and I’m sure you can predict my points before I make them. And it gets exhausting to be honest, and feels a bit pointless too. And self-defeating. But the school system is really a different type of issue for me. My kids are in the school system for the next decade or so. We volunteer our time to the schools. I’ve struggled with the choices I’ve had to make for my kids about the schools and special education. What I’m trying to say is that unlike development issues we are all far more aligned here. I may disagree on the rankings and their usefulness, but anything that improves the schools would help my kids too.
With that said, much of these conversations seem to focus on issues that I don’t think improve the schools. These types of rankings. Principals writing books. How the schools are too woke now or spending too much money on DEI issues. To me, that is the “noise”, and it seems more driven by political beliefs than reality, especially the latter issues.
My concerns are different:
1) are we still able to attract and maintain an excellent teacher base with our salary scale compared to our peer schools? Do we have teachers to teach those advanced classes? To help our kids with special needs (which require specialized teaching skills). How do we afford to keep up with our peer district salary scales in a time of fiscal belt tightening?
2) This has been a difficult time for many of our kids. Do we have the mental health staff and resources in place to help them. How do we maintain it if we have it? How do we afford to keep doing so.
3) The USNews data is largely from pre-pandemic. I think we can all acknowledge we left some kids behind during the pandemic, both academically and emotionally. How are we devoting resources to help those kids catch up? How do we afford to keep doing so?
4) We’ve been debating about the reduction of kids in the Newton school system. 1,000 have left. But the high schools are still full and will be for years. It is true that the departure was occurring before the pandemic, but it has accelerated. Is this a canary in the coalmine, folks voting with their pocketbooks to leave Newton for better private schools? Or is it partly that our property values have risen so high that new home buyers can easily afford private school or come from a private school background? How do we as a school system adjust, when fewer kids means less resources and funding from the state/feds? How do we evaluate what the losses mean? And if there is a major reduction in quality in comparison to private schools, how do we close that gap? And do so in a way we can afford?
Ok, so that is too long a post, and I apologize. I care deeply about this issue, and I welcome feedback and thoughts.
You’re singing my song: ‘The Newton schools has consistently told me that their job isn’t to maximize potential for students like that.’
I agree with pretty much all of this.
And some of the things that can help increase ranking, like higher faculty:student ratios, are just generally a good idea. But they cost money.
And other thinks that can help increase ranking, like making more kids take an AP class or AP test, even if not ready, don’t cost money. That doesn’t make them a good idea.
We could more closely track classes if we had a narrower set of offerings, but then we would loose classes that kids are genuinely excited about (4 quarters of art are required, but the only thing my older son has shown ANY interest in is darkroom photography. At NN, he could take almost 4 full years of darkroom photography! Or just the 4 quarters he needs. We’ll see)
/as always, a personal statement
Regardless of the fluff ranking/data, I think we should spend this energy into making Newton schools better rather than write papers on this blog.
For those who think NPS can/should do better – let’s start the conversations with the people that can make this happen
For those who think NPS is perfect the way it is – more of the same, let’s kick the can down the road some more and wait to see what happens for the future generations
@Fig
I hear you on the college rankings, and impact on college choice. The impact is outsized, and things like college vs university, rural vs urban, large vs small, STEM focus vs liberal arts education, are insufficiently part of the decision making process.
The hope for me with this post was that the inflammatory nature of being ranked #40 in Massacusetts would get the larger conversation going. I agree with a need for greater dialogue here and less on development. I’ve been thankful those posts have slowed down considerably, and we’re seeing a greater focus on NPS on V14 than we have over the years. This is FAR more important.
I come at this with a different perspective and vantage point. We moved our kids to private school several years ago now. We were tired waiting for obvious changes that take far too long– from full day kindergarten to school building upgrades. But more than anything, we left because our kids weren’t being challenged in school, and it didn’t seem to be the best use of their time. No differentiation even when its obvious, and when speaking with school administrators, they were explicit that challenging high performers to achieve their best wasn’t the focus, but rather to ensure most student met a very good standard. And while that has led to good outcomes for Newton and Massachusetts compared to other places, we weren’t OK that our kids should be content with achieving at a very good standard versus excelling at their best. “Supplementing” school with Russian Math and other academic extracurriculars felt like using more hours to achieve what could be achieved during the school day with a stronger approach.
When my kids talk with their friends at NPS, the difference is significant. Rigor is consistently stronger across most subjects. No private school is perfect and all have their weaknesses, but overall the difference is notable– papers, presentations, science labs, math differentation. I’ve been shocked to see how little homework is done at NPS, and that’s in context of new education research showing that its about quality, not quantity of HW that matters. Some private schools go too far in this respect in a way that is detrimental mental health-wise (not ours), but our kids are being pushed to achieve that their peers aren’t at NPS.
On AP– private schools are starting to get away from it, as while its more challenging than standard curriculum, its overly formulaic and too focused on teaching to the test, and consequently offers less learning than other advanced classes. When I see and hear about these mixed classes at NPS between non-AP and AP with effectively lip service to the latter– and I compare that struggle to private schools that are looking to move beyond AP, its feels like NPS is a step and a half behind.
I’m in this debate because I care about Newton, care about my friends with kids at NPS and wish NPS was different such that I wouldn’t have felt the need to move to private school to allow my kids to achieve their best. But the difference is significant, Newton needs to get back to being a leading system in Massachusetts. We’re not one of those right now, IMO.
Alec:
I can certainly understand the desire for more rigor from the Newton school system as a whole, especially middle school. But even in elementary school, one of my kids was not being challenged and I found it frustrating.
If I could afford pulling all of my kids from public school and put them in private school, I would consider it. But that isn’t a realistic option for my family due to cost. I’m happy that it is for you and your family.
But one thing to note is that in my view Newton public schools really aren’t comparable to many private schools. The more selective and wealthy private schools have so many advantages and resources that it really isn’t fair to compare public and private. There are some positive things about public schools too, but from a resource perspective, it isn’t a fair comparison.
Doesn’t mean improving the Newton schools isn’t an important discussion, but just trying to be clear about the comparisons.
@Fig
Agree with some of that, but Lexington feels very different in terms of excellence for high performing students. They are the bar for our state.
On the public vs private- yes resources make a difference, but that difference is large on non-core academics (theater, sports, extracurriculares), meaningful impact on class size (15 vs 25), but it’s shouldn’t need to have such a large impact on excellence and rigor- that’s more of a resource-neutral question- high quality teachers is the key driver there. That’s more about philosophy, willingness to differentiate and track students, and overall make top student performance a priority. It simply isn’t.
@alec which private school is this? Curious to know since we are evaluating
Think there are a number that fit these general parameters, differences are more nuanced, definitely worth visiting a good bunch to get a feel- they don’t hide who they are.
There seems to be a tension between the mental health needs and stress that students encounter at the high schools and the expectations of parents. I have had kids in the high school for eight years and this has always been an issue. There have been some years where the number of suicides became very worrisome (even one teen suicide is concerning, but I can think of at least one year where there were three). If you read the student-run papers (which, as an FYI, are more informative than the TAB) at South you see this same tension expressed by students about how stressful expectations can be and the push to take as many AP and honors classes as they can fit. When I hear about the “good old days when Newton schools ranked supreme”, I chuckle and imagine that parents back then were saying the same things as parents now.
We can squabble about USNWR’s methodology/meaning, but there’s one objective standard that I found troubling. Last year, I took a look at Newton’s performance on AP tests (available from DESE). We were at the bottom of our peers in terms of % students that got 4s or 5s, 53% compared to 75% average. Maybe because the teachers aren’t teaching to the test, but that’s a big gap. In my recollection (admitedly a long time ago), I thought the AP tests were representive of college level material. If it wasn’t, I doubt colleges would accept it as credit. I suspect all the mixed level classes in our school system in the name of equity aka “No Child Gets Ahead” is the more likely culprit.
AP classes (not to be confused with Honors) are not mixed and yes, they do teach to the test.
My understanding is that AP classes ARE mixed. I just learned that an hour ago when my NSHS student was home for lunch. (Or was it during a free block or during WIN? I can’t keep it straight anymore since my kid seems to be out of school more often than in this year).
In any event, it was the first I had learned that AP classes definitely are mixed and have non-AP students in them.
The NPS administration has publicly stated that certain AP classes are mixed-level.
The path (ie preparation) to the APs is mixed level and apparently so are the actual AP classes?
Glad to be corrected by an administrator that would be familiar with every course in the district, but I believe the district has specifically talked about mixed-level classes that offer AP curriculum to those students in the class that are taking the exam. Keep in mind from the NPS perspective the propagation of mixed-level classes are an accomplishment to widely advertise, they’re part of the district’s inclusion goals.
*IS an accomplishment
(I did not take AP English)
@Adam @Bruce C.
We have friends in mixed AP classes. It means non-AP and AP student in the same classroom. My understanding is that teachers are teaching a standard curriculum but giving the AP students the additional components necessary for AP curriculum. Perhaps somehow teaching two curriculums at once. But definitely AP and non-AP together, far from ideal.
I’d appreciate knowing what AP classes are mixed, at least at South. Between my two kids, they’ve been in around eight AP classes and they have never been mixed. I highly doubt that the math AP classes are mixed as well as the naturals science APs. I haven’t heard if US history being mixed.
Alec – thanks for clarifying, that ties to all the public statements I’ve heard, but wondered if I’d misunderstood them based on some of the comments above. No misunderstanding.
Maybe there is a place for thoughtful, targeted mixing of certain classes, executed with respect for the needs of everyone involved, including teachers. In the middle of a pandemic was not the time to try this, and not in the hamfisted way the current administration has rolled it out: basically telling parents that their honor student kids are socially awkward nerds that need “real world” skills, and if you disagree you’re a racist. For some kids great in academics but not sports or social clubs, honors classes are their safe space.
The purpose of AP classes is for students to take the AP test. Maybe they are mixed by class year, but level is inconsequential since they need to be at a level where they can do the work to take the AP exam. Look through the course catalogue and all AP classes are at the same level. AP courses such as calculus, biology, chemistry, physics, etc. are single level classes. Maybe elective type courses such as psychology might be mixed level, but even there the purpose of the class is to succeed on the AP exam.
Halcyondays- what AP courses at South are mixed?
Is the DESE information from last school year or a prior year?
@Bruce C – I think you have that backwards. The purpose of AP classes is for high school kids who are capable to be able to take college level course work – i.e. education.
Yes, if they do well they can take the AP Test and receive college credit – i.e. that’s a nice bonus but I wouldn’t call it the purpose of AP classes
Jerry- I would respectfully disagree. While it is true that AP classes are for kids who are able or want to attempt to take college level course-work, quizzes and tests are generally formatted and evaluated to succeed on the test.
Hopefully this time, Newton will hire a superintendent capable of running an educational system to a higher measured performance than in the years before being hired.
What are the definative set of performance metrics by which Newton Public Schhols say it measures its own success and by which parents should measure its success?
Where are the annually reported assessments of NPS’s delivered outcomes, as measured in trendlines of those performance metrics?
If the unionized professionals quibble about USNews and MCAS-like standardized test comparators, let’s insist that the School Committee get, at the onset, from the successful candidate the objectives against which the system’s performance should be evaluated.
A heavier management hand cannot be a bad thing in the current planning horizon.
Madame Mayor? …
As a retired teacher, I still wonder why parents consider it so important for students to be taking college-level classes, i.e. AP courses. My junior year honors English course, I believe, was as rigorous as the senior AP courses, their resemblance to “college” courses notwithstanding.
Here are some interesting tidbits I grasped from talking with former colleagues still at work.
First, classes meet just three times a week, for seventy-five minutes a session. These teachers feel that it was more beneficial to meet more frequently, perhaps four times a week, than to meet fewer times per week for longer times. Students tend to run out of mental space after about fifty minutes per session. Nothing in my experience convinced me that my teaching improved when the schools shifted to longer blocks. Those blocks also make students’ days even drearier.
Secondly, these teachers tell me that as the school day is longer and ends later, teachers assign less homework. As a result, teachers cover less material, sometimes only one book in English class a term. Imagine: our old standard when I started at South was three books of moderate length a term or two if one was lengthy. We also assigned outside reading, usually lighter reading not requiring daily discussion to understand. Close reading, a staple of all English courses, whatever the level, also seems less important now. And classics? Farewell. Students don’t read many, if any, plays by Shakespeare anymore. However dimly high school students grasp the complex language of the Bard, their appreciation improves with experience, as it does with anything in life.
I know, “He no playa the game, no maka the rules,” as Earl Butz reportedly quipped. Within current constraints, many teachers still inspire their students, and our graduates seem to flourish in college. But the world has moved on.
As a parent with a student at South this year (my older one graduated in 2020), this schedule STINKS. If a teacher is out one time during the week, the class ONLY meets twice per week. Very college like. Some of these kids have a hard time with this. We basically have middle school students – beginner 9th graders plunged into college schedules. Their brains, IMHO, aren’t ready for this plunge.
Getting out later isn’t so great. Starting later – fine. But the 3:45 PM end time is hard. How is the last period teacher supposed to teach if 25% of the students get dismissed for sports. Teaching stops. At home work (homework) starts so that the athletes don’t miss too much and the teacher doesn’t need to double teach.
I watched the SC committee meetings where long blocks were introduced. The pitch from the administration was that it would give teachers more time to develop material more deeply. The students that sit in on the SC meetings were very negative about the idea. Administrators also claimed that this change was necessary for homework to be completed during the class day. As we found out, this was the “anti-racist” way to do things, since asking students to do homework at home perpetuates systematic racism.
The administration conducted focus groups of students and teachers (of course, parents were not included) on the long block idea. An administrator told the school committee that they would compile the focus group feedback and present at a later SC meeting. Unless I missed something, they never did so. The school committee must have forgotten about this. Hmmm. I wonder how the focus groups went.
I think the question is, does the class need the time?
A million years ago when I was in high school at a wealthy suburb of a major city it was something like a class is 50 minutes with a 5 minute passing period (we had 1000 kids/grade, it was a big building). Then I went to a residential state magnet school – IMSA – where classes were some number of 20? 25? Minute blocks + passing periods as needed. Language or English? 2 blocks. Science Labs or studio art? 3 blocks. It was no big deal if you had blocks off – you were expected to study, or eat, or hit the gym (there was no PE requirement, although you could take classes, and the weight and cardio rooms were usually open, but not the pool)
Since it was our home, it was no big deal – kids would be in and out of the main building from 6:00am-ish (when swim practice started) to 7 or 8 at night for after dinner clubs and study sessions. I took Japanese at 7:30 am for a year (two?) and would go back to the dorms after that 2 block class to change out of my PJ’s, eat, and get ready for the rest of my classes.
Even with that, there was a pretty set M-W-F schedule, and a T-R one.
With these longer blocks at NNHS (and NSHS?) every day is so different that I think it’s hard for the kids to know what’s coming. I know the middle-school 6 day schedule rotating though 5 days a week, one of them short, has been murder on my kid’s executive function. They changed it to something simpler last year for COVID, but now it’s back. (If it’s any comfort, Concord seems to have the same system…)
I guess, I’d hoped that we went to something so hard to track for a concrete reason that showed real improvement for students.
(As an aside, IMSA was excluded from the ratings, so we cannot prove that we beat New Trier)
/as always, a personal statement
From a parent’s perspective, with COVID this year, teachers and students have been out for five days. There is HIGH amount of teachers and students calling out because of illness. When the teacher is out for a week there is no sub and all teaching stops. There is less material being covered. It would be nice in the world if each department had a floating sub so that these kids didn’t lose a week of math or English or physics due to a COVID illness.
Decent subs are very hard to find. My kids tells me their sub just puts on a video and then plays on their phone. Ie baby sitter
The ranking of our schools may not reflect an ordinary situation. Maybe we ought to cut the teachers some slack this year. What I hear from my ex-colleagues at Concord-Carlisle HS is that teachers are pretty stressed, dealing with all kinds of behavioral and studying issues: even the AP students (Juniors and Seniors) do not behave like AP students and that is true across the board, regardless of the subject taught.
Of course, it does not mean that everybody should not aspire to better schools.
isabelle,
No one is blaming the teachers, the blame lies soley on NPS management for setting the tone/direction/expectation of academic excellence.
Many parents feel NPS has been too focused on “equity” rather than academics
lololol