From tonight’s Boston Globe website:
In the wake of protests over the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minnesota police, former deputy athletic director for external affairs at Northeastern, Tim Duncan, posted a video Monday on Twitter detailing an incident of profiling by police not far from his home in Newton.
Duncan, who left Northeastern last year to become athletic director at the University of New Orleans but still has a home in Newton, said he was on a walk with his wife heading to the store when four police cars and six officers stopped him, weapons drawn, saying he fit the profile of a suspected murderer.
The incident occurred May 20, five days before Floyd was killed, but Duncan said, in the aftermath of Floyd’s death, he felt compelled to tell his story
Needs to be fully investigated. This has to stop.
Horrible. Guns drawn. He had every reason to believe he was about to be executed.
This is scary, but the Globe leaves me confused with this quote from the Newton Police: “The following day, May 21, the suspect in the Boston fatal shooting was taken into custody on a warrant by the Boston police as he exited the address in Newton.”
So the suspect was arrested as he left Duncan’s home? Or am I reading this wrong?
Also this:
“Along with the video post, Floyd spoke with students at the University of New Orleans and posted a message that he was “outraged and angry” as the country’s longstanding issues around race continue to manifest.”
That should say “Duncan spoke…”
This article is so terribly written and reported, it’s hard to believe it made it into print.
@Dave Brigham – I had to go back and re-read it to figure it out. The suspect exited the house that Duncan was walking past when the police stopped him, not Duncan’s home.
Yes, badly written. No, probably didn’t make it into print. This was off the top of the website, so it was probably posted tonight. Hopefully it will be better in tomorrow’s print edition .
@Meredith Warshaw – thanks for the clarification.
What happened to George Floyd is sad and should never happen again.
But so is something else that is happening on a massive scale and about which no one dares to speak.
The leading cause of death of young African American men is Homicide – by other Young black men. (https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2016/nonhispanic-black/index.htm#anchor_1571149616)
Yet our “Newton leaders” are silent. And have been.
The slaughter happens every single day in places like Chicago. (https://chicago.suntimes.com/platform/amp/2020/6/1/21275944/chicago-weekend-shootings-most-violent-weekend-2020-may-29-june-1)
Yet our “Newton leaders” are silent.
Do they really care or are they just race hustlers checking the box?
@Charles – that’s some impressive Kremlin-style trolling.
According to your CDC source, the leading cause of death of young white men is unintentional injuries, primarily automobile accidents. But that datum and yours are irrelevant to the discussion of the racist, lethal actions carried out by agents of the government against its own citizens day after day with virtually no accountability.
Anyway you sound like quite an enlightened individual who’s not at all bigoted, so I’m sure that your solution to inner-city violence is to increase investment in education and social programs, provide greater opportunity to the economically disadvantaged, and to offer financial reparations in the trillions of dollars for the descendants of individuals who were exploited for two and a half centuries to ensure this country’s economic growth. Great job, Chuck!
@Michael
Thanks for making my point: diversion, obfuscation, even a couple of insults and willful blindness and to the reality of the data. So typical.
The data is sad though, don’t you think?
Sure, all the solutions you mentioned have worked and brought us to where we are today. By all means: let’s double-down on them.
Charles, no one, including you, has made your point – mainly because there doesn’t seem to be one except to troll a thread about black men being killed by police – by inserting “facts” that are untrue and in addition have no relevance.
So far, we’ve discussed the confusing reporting in the article and the leading causes of murder in the United States.
How about we get back on topic – which is that in our City nobody should be made to feel unsafe. Nobody should be approached by police with their guns out because they maybe look like a suspect.
What happened to Tim Duncan is inexcusable, and the suburban cops have been doing this forever – https://theswellesleyreport.com/2015/01/ex-celtic-dee-brown-reflects-on-ugly-wellesley-mistaken-identity-incident-from-25-years-ago/
It’s never acceptable for the police to point loaded weapons at innocent people walking down the street. This requires an immediate apology from the chief and the mayor.
Cmdr. Apotheker comes across as completely clueless, especially with his suggestion that Mr. Duncan waste time filing a “grievance” with the department- which will certainly be eighty-six’d.
The mayor needs to ensure that there is genuine civilian oversight of the city’s police force.
This article has obviously been edited. It makes more sense now.
It’s outrageous that this man, Tim Duncan, was treated this way as he walked from his Newton home with his wife to the store.
Oh my gosh. How awful. I know Tim. Our daughters were on the same soccer team and he and his wife are wonderful people. I read the story this morning on Boston.com and it seems to have been updated with a statement from the Newton Police Department (which statement, I should add, was not exactly apologetic). I’d also be interested in knowing a little more about the fact that a suspected murdered was arrested on a warrant in Newton.
I’m sure it was incredibly scary for Mr Duncan, but I would expect police to approach a suspected murder suspect with guns drawn.
I think the issue that should be carefully looked into is what exactly was the description of the suspect that the police were working from and how specifically did it fit Mr Duncan – i.e. more than “black male”.
Like George. I find it odd that this is the first we’ve heard that a murder suspect (not Mr. Duncan) was recently arrested in Newton.
@Marti
I’m sorry but my “facts that are untrue“ come from the CDC. Now, you don’t have to believe them.
There needs to be a broader, frank discussion of personal responsibility and accountability in the African American community. (See Chicago murder rate)
@Michael If the government is as racist and lethal as you say it is, wouldn’t there be an equally appalling number of, say, Asian-Americans being harassed and interrogated and killed by the police every day? Why not?
Until that frank discussion occurs, you can each line up here:
https://tradersbulletin.co.uk/newwp/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/whydoikeeplosing.jpeg
Bryan, are we sure that “nobody should be approached with guns out even if they look like a suspect?” If there are murderers running around Newton I for one would appreciate it if they were apprehended.
Charles,
I advise you to stay focused on what is happening in the now. Those are other issues that aren’t pertinent to the spate of recent deaths of black human beings. Life isn’t solely about statistics.
Yes – the 84 shootings and 23 murders of African Americans in Chicago last weekend are just a “statistic”.
Nothing to see here.
There was a story a while back about how the Internet Research Agency in Saint Petersburg was supposedly trying to take its game up a notch in order to appear more “sophisticated,” but they obviously haven’t had much success if they’re resorting to url’s on spammy GoDaddy/WordPress websites like “tradersbulletin.co.uk.”
@Jerry – sadly, I’m not surprised this is the first we’ve heard of a murder suspect being arrested in Newton, given that we have no real local paper any more. Back in the days when the Newton TAB had actual reporters, I expect we would have heard it.
I, too, would like to see the description our police department was given. Absent that, we have no way of knowing if Mr. Duncan fit it in any way other than skin color. This incident takes on different meaning depending on whether there was a close match or almost none. Sadly, we’ve read enough incidents where the latter was the case so it’s important, IMO, for the Newton PD to share the description they were given.
Hey Chuck: Did ..
a) any of the 84 involve a Newton resident or property owner as the triggerman; or
b) any of the 23 include someone who ever lived in Newton, was a relative of a current resident of Newton, or has received an honorary degree from one of the institutions makings PILOTS to the City of Newton; or
c) any of the equipment used either by the shooter, the victim, or law enforcement get manufactured or invented by anyone residing in Newton at any time of recorded history; or
d) you detect any direct, indirect, specious, or other linkage connecting any one of those shootings, that you appear to have a superior understanding and unique factual basis for analyzing, back to Newton?
If not, I submit that they are “just a ‘statistic'” which, however grim are, not relevant to Newton except in the flap of butterfly wings kind of way.
More importantly if you are a resident of Newton, I submit that there are many opportunities for you to contribute directly to changing people’s lives and solving actual problems in your home town, and that by doing so, you can help global warming by no longer having to travel to Chicago in attempt to make a difference.
Tim Duncan relates a set of events very close to, what I presume is, your home. Wanderings too far from t/here might be a sign of an inability to focus.
If you are a Christian man, reread Proverbs 16:28. A Hebrew, recall Psalm 34:14’s נְצֹר לְשֹׁונְךָ מֵרָע. .. I’ll leave other possibilities to the reader …
@Aaron – I’m not going to say that I know what the appropriate precautions are in every situation. This level of precaution in this situation as described seems excessive.
Here’s the statement from the Newton Police that’s been added to the Globe article.
Community policing includes cops walking a beat and becoming trusted members of a community. That kind of policing could have made Mr. Duncan, an upstanding and highly accomplished member of the community, more than a stranger to Newton police officers, so they would not simply racially profile him under duress.
But we don’t have a significant presence of cops that walk or bike a beat in Newton. Our cops are largely drive-by cops. And in our current budget proposal, with jobs being lost everywhere, instead of re-thinking how police engage with the community in light of the murder of unarmed black men, the Newton police is proposing to purchase two new police cars at $100,000 taxpayers expense, so that they can stay in cars and stay estranged from black or brown folks they end up mistakenly pulling guns on in our community.
After reading some of the comments on this incident maybe some of you should familiarize yourself with your local Police Dept and not lump it in with other suburban depts.
The Newton Police Dept is one of the few nationally accredited depts in the state of Mass(Calea). Anytime there is a use of Force incident officers are required to fill out a use of force form and explain their actions. In this case since we do not know what information was given to the NPD from the Boston PD in regards to the nature of crime and a description about the suspect and if they are violent.
The officers do have a right to have their weapons drawn if the information provided to them show that their lives may be in danger when approaching the suspect.
So find out about dept policies before your make inaccurate statements.
They keep stats on the use of force and you can see if the dept has an issue with for example maybe drawing there weapon when it wasn’t justified.
Next I see now Nathan Phillip’s wants walking beats when the other day he was tweeting for the defunding of the police. Walking beats existed in the villages in Newton for years until budget cuts eliminated the existence of them. I walked the squares for many years as a patrolman. It was a great way to be in touch with the community. I also rode the mounties during this period in the 00s and met many great business and community leaders. It would be great see them again Newton. So Nathan which is it defund the police or have walking beats?
He also stated that the NPD is a racist dept since a contingent was sent to the President’s inauguration back in 2017. Never heard him criticize us when we provided security for President Obama in Newton. I guess it doesn’t fit the narrative.
As for Mary I guess Black on Black violence like what is unfortunately happening in Chicago daily is not a problem. Reminds me of all the secret NIMBY complaints we receive over the years from some of our tolerant citizens.
So learn about the dept you are so easy to criticize without knowing all the facts. But then again I am not surprised.
@Marc – Thanks for coming on here to share your perspective. Question for you: Is it ever necessary to have multiple officers with guns drawn on a suspect without clearly identifying that they are armed? I’m genuinely asking, since you seem to have some experience with best practices.
Newton Police statement says:
If, as Tim Duncan says, they approached him with weapons drawn, the statement should say so.
@ Bryan
If information was given out that the alleged suspect wanted for murder was armed and dangerous of course the officers have the right to have their weapons drawn until they can ascertain that the suspect is not carrying a weapon. But we don’t know the full details on this incident. You should be happy that multiple officers are able to arrive in a short period of time. This is a deterrent to those who may have other ideas if it was just a single officer approaching them.
Like I stated earlier there are policy and procedures that the officer must follow and when use of force is used such as drawing your weapon. A form is filled out with officers explaining their actions. These reports are reviewed and passed up the chain of command and the necessary action will taken depending on the situation. They reports will be used for training, retraining or disciplining officers if warranted.
Useful information from Marc. It’s so hard for those of us who were not at an incident to judge whether police officers are being prudent and cautious versus overstepping their authority or engaging in inappropriate profiling. That’s why a strong chain of command review system is important, and also why a separate review board can be of great value for cases that need an independent review. Having both of those can help a police department maintain both high standards and support from the community, while protecting both officers and members of the public during stressful situations.
Phew, it’s good to know that a form will be filled out by the officers, and that their own colleagues will then take a look at that form. Case closed!
Shame on you, Nathan Phillips, for criticizing the NPD’s decision to voluntarily send four officers on a junket to Washington, DC to go stand in front of the Trump International Hotel during the inauguration party and flirt with the Republican interns. Where was your criticism when the Newton Police provided the policing services they get paid to perform here in their own jurisdiction of Newton during a sitting president’s visit in 2010? Acknowledge the equivalence, please.
Please tell police how to handle this type of situation – dangerous person wanted for murder, description matches person you see – what should police do??
@roger – I think people would like to know if Mr. Duncan matched the description of the person other than having dark skin. If there were some specifics to the description and he matched them, then it sounds like the response likely was reasonable. If the only part that matched was that he was a black male, then profiling is a concern.
If I’m walking down the street, I am unlikely to get stopped by police who are looking for a tall medium-build brunette woman in her 30s, since the only part of that I match is the hair color and gender. We know that there are many occurrences all over this country where the black men get stopped when the only things that match their description are being a black male.
I am not saying that’s what happened here. It is possible it is, it is possible it isn’t. A lot of us would like to be told what description our PD was given.
in real life you don’t always get exact descriptions, = age range, height range, weight range, sex and race, last seen wearing. So the person you see matches this description, what do you want police to do??
The mental gymnastics in this thread quite literally say “not in my backyard” is impressively depressing. Instead of trying to find wording that makes us feel like this problem doesn’t happen in Newton, email your city councilor and Mayor Fuller and demand oversight.
@roger – I didn’t say I expected them to have an exact description. I’d like to know if Mr. Duncan at all matched the age range, height range, & weight range. Note that in my hypothetical description only included tall, medium build (i.e., not skinny, not obese), and age range – and none of those match me so the police aren’t likely to stop me just because I have brown hair.
Sadly, there have been too many situations in our country where African-Americans have been stopped when they are mismatched on age range, height range, and weight range.
I have asked twice for someone to tell me what police should do in a situation like this. Pretend you are in charge of training police.
I hear all the time people saying police can’t do that, can’t do this. I wonder why it is that people feel so comfortable telling police how to do the job. Do they tell plumbers and electricians how to do their job?
Every incoming phone call is taped at police dept. All radio broadcasts are taped at police dept. Any lawyer can get copies of this info to find out if police are just stopping people for no reason. The media would have you believe all police are to be feared and it seems they have succeeded.
“Next I see now Nathan Phillip’s wants walking beats when the other day he was tweeting for the defunding of the police. Walking beats existed in the villages in Newton for years until budget cuts eliminated the existence of them. I walked the squares for many years as a patrolman. It was a great way to be in touch with the community. I also rode the mounties during this period in the 00s and met many great business and community leaders. It would be great see them again Newton. So Nathan which is it defund the police or have walking beats?”
I’m so glad you asked: Allocate the $100k the Newton PD wants for two pricey new gas guzzlers and get a few cops on a walking and biking beat instead – how much would that cost?
Also, I didn’t bring it up, but since you did: if Trump ever came to Newton I’m guessing Newton PD would do its part along with trump’s overwhelming military show of force. But would I like it? No. And while I have huge issues with Obama (drone strikes, immigration policy, rubberstamping fossil fuels), Obama didn’t rape minor Victoria Roberts nor consort (to my knowledge) with pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. And he didn’t call for the execution of five young men of color who were later exonerated by DNA evidence.
I’ll go further into the details of trump’s credible rape allegations including the disgusting epstein details if you’d like.
@roger – fine. I’d like the police to only someone as a potential suspect if they match on at least 2 characteristics other than race and gender.
Roger, as I said, as a community we should re-think our priorities on community versus drive-by policing. One builds community trust & social ties; the other leads to interactions between strangers that can amount to nothing more than racial profiling.
“I’d like the police to only someone as a potential suspect if they match on at least 2 characteristics other than race and gender.”
Unfortunately in real life there are not always many descriptors available/given.
If you were attacked from behind by a white male who then knocked you down before running off you would accept not being able to report this or the police telling you when you reported that they could not take any action due to limited description.
I would urge anyone to attend a citizens academy or go on several ride along’s to actually find out for yourself what policing is really like instead of relying on tv/movies.
@roger – I have never seen a description of being robbed by a white male with no other descriptor lead to the stopping of every white male in the vicinity.
But you yourself have seen every black male stopped? You should do some ride alongs to see what real life in policing is really all about. The public has way to many preconceived notions about police work.
You did not respond to my asking if you would be ok with the police not taking any action on your attack. Once victims found out police needed more descriptors to investigate, how long do you think until word got out that victims had better have more descriptors (like making them up) That wouldn’t cause any problem??
@roger – if I could only say it was a [insert race or ethnic group] male, I would not want them stopping people based only on that description. And I have been in the situation where I didn’t report something because all I could have said was something that vague with no witnesses to give more description, so it wasn’t realistic for the police to be able to correctly identify the person. That probably happens more than you might think.
In the case being discussed here, there’s good reason to expect the BPD had some idea who the person was given they had an idea where he might be hiding out. I, and other people, would like to know what description they had.
It’s clear there’s no answer I can give that will satisfy you, so I am disengaging from this thread.
I asked what should police do? I pointed out some problems with your answer. You decide to disengage. That in itself speaks volumes. Have a good evening.
My answer depends on how much information they have. We don’t know that. Unlike some people, I don’t claim to know what others should do when I don’t know what information they have. When I know what they knew, I’ll be happy to answer the question of what I think they should do.
Roger apparently has nothing to say to Mr. Duncan about the trauma he experienced.
@Marc G.: Assuming that you’ve never actually stood for any length of time after sundown at the southwest corner of S. Vernon at 43rd St. alone and in your civis, Chicago is all marketing images, statistics and convention wisdom to you too. Without proof, I’d grant that you know lots more than I do about everything Newton .. not NIMBY, mine was a more nuance point.
People suspected of a crime have not been convicted of a crime. The fact that a person matches a vague description of a suspect should not alone warrant pointing a lethal weapon at someone.
Each case has its own facts, and I don’t want to jump to conclusions. But I do want to acknowledge that there may be standards that need to be revised to ensure we protect the public as well as our officers.
Why is nobody mentioning the fact that not only did he fit the description, however vague that may have been, he was outside the location they were watching for the suspect?They were not pulling guns on every tall black man in newton. I would imagine every suspected murderer is approached with guns out no matter the race, they werent looking for a shoplifter. Mr Duncan was in the wrong place at the worst time and unfortunately had to experience a very scary situation that many black americans face, that doesn’t mean this particular situation was handled poorly.
Hope to see you all from 4:30-5:30 pm outside of NPD today. Let’s support Duncan and all black Newton residents who have gone through things like this.
Barash typifies the policy wonk who spouts platitudes and corporate-speak but has very little practical experience. He should get off the Beacon Hill gravy train and out into the real world if he wants to run again. Thank goodness most of the voters in his ward didn’t get duped by the machine that propped him up.
The previous commenter typifies those who have turned their back on the real world in order to spout Internet non sequiturs about some simmering personal resentment they harbor.
Dear Needham Mike,
I’d love to live in your world where a murderer on May 18 is no longer dangerous on May 2o.
Have you made it to Castle Island yet Mikey?
@Peter – If you have personal experience that would be beneficial to the conversation – feel free to share it here or shoot me an email. I’m always happy to talk.
PS – Public servants work really hard for much less than is paid in the private sector, people have enough distrust in government as it is. “Beacon Hill gravy train” type comments do nothing to help raise the debate. Lets do better.
Again Mr. Barash, you can’t seem to get out of your own way. I was working on Beacon Hill probably before you ever set foot in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I campaigned for and worked for the first Black District Attorney in the history of Suffolk County, who is still a friend. I earned $22,500 per annum as a new Assistant D.A., working long hours in less than ideal conditions. Thereafter I did public defense work for what worked out to be less than $35/hour at the end of the day.
So please save your “public servants” lecture for someone else.
Maybe, just maybe, you should refrain from publicly commenting on what happened to Mr. Duncan until you get more information about police procedure and the incident. As lawyers we need to be better than that.